Let’s see what another break gives us.
ACC Now called the Heels “listless.”
Roy said they played better than they did against Oral Roberts and Evansville.
There are plenty of complaints about the level of intensity as well certain issues stopping the Crusaders’ Urule Igbavboa.
I actually think the bigger issues were the lack of offensive execution, especially when it came to hitting shots and taking care of the basketball. On the flip side UNC does not score as much as they ought to off turnovers. This was the case against Oral Roberts and it was an issue this game. In other words, holding Valpo to 63 points was fine. The hang up is with the slow start by the Heels and the fact the final margin was only 22. This is a fair point given how badly the Heels trounced Michigan State and to a less extent Note Dame. Both of these programs are ranked whereas Valpo is considered to be a very weak team. The expectation based on these previous wins is that a team like Valpo would be roadkill by halftime This was not the case and since the Heels returned from exams, they have not nearly been as sharp. In this way it would seem they tend to play down to their opponent and on the basis of the Maui/Big Ten-ACC wins it would also appear UNC is capable of raising their level of play when needed.
This game also was a foul plagued affair. 45 total fouls were called between the two teams with Valpo committing a pair of intentionals late in the game. The frequent fouls contributed to the general ugliness of the game. The twenty three Tar Heel fouls speaks to some poor defense at times. Valpo on the other hand apparently watched the Evansville game and figured they have nothing to lose in hacking the Tar Heels at will. It remains to be seen whether future opponents opt for this type of “defense.”
Overall, I continue to be less inclined to worry about this team on the basis of what happened in earlier games. UNC is still missing a key player, especially where defense is concerned. Yes it was a slow start with plenty of craptastic play for the Heels but again my issues were more with how the shooting and lack of execution off Valpo turnovers than it was anything else. UNC also did a poor job handling the zone defense which led to 27 three pointers on less than 30% shooting. If the Heels hit four more threes this ends up being a 30+ point blowout. Also, given how listless UNC played they still opened up a close to 30 point lead up late in the 2nd half. The lesson there is that UNC misfiring on various cylinders is still more than capable of blowing most teams out. This just happens to be a funky stretch for the team right now, something I do not think will continue, especially in ACC play.
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Hopefully they are playing down to their opponent. Of course they trounced some bad teams early. Also I hope they are not already believing the hype of “they are the best team in the nation”, and not coming to play with that tiger intensity.
THF, what’s our strength of schedule compared to other teams? ie, Duke. The schedule to me seems pretty weak so far but maybe I’m delusional. I see Duke playing Xavier and Conn playing Gonzaga, and we’re fooling around with Valpo yesterday.
Chris,
Here are a few:
UNC: 82
Duke: 96
Gonzaga: 25
Pitt: 182
Oklahoma: 114
UConn: 276
Clemson: 239
Texas: 192
UCLA: 191
Wake: 315
Except for the start, I was decently pleased with our performance. The game was less than a total blowout only because, during the first eight minutes or so, we were terrible with the ball. In that stretch, Lawson played his worst ball of the season, and the offensive execution looked atrocious as a result. So we got down 12-3. We won the rest of the game by 31 points.
Like Chris, I have said that I would prefer some better competition by way of preparing for the ACC season. Still, this game featured an opposing team that seemed to me to be better than its record (or at least to have played better this time). The Valpo coach is quite smart, and he had his team playing hard.
Hansbrough needs to take more advantage of his much improved effectiveness shooting from 8-10 feet. They won’t gurard him there (indeed they can’t lest he go to the rim), and he’ll make them pay. He also needs to get the ball more often.
One other note: I saw most of the UConn/Gonzaga game. Fine. Bring it on. Gonzaga dribbles way too much (instead of passing), resulting in one-on-one play. Their white players, though advertised as stars, are awful, except for their center (Hyvelt I think his name is), who’s pretty good, and huge. As to UConn, they have athleticism and skill, but we have more of both. Thabeet is overrated.
The second best team in the country is not UConn. I hate to say it, but I suspect it might be Dook. They just pasted a top-ten Xavier team. But they have no answer for Hansbrough, and that will be that when we play them.
I live in BE country and have seen Pitt a number of times. IMO, they are the 2nd best team in the country. I think the would do evil things to Duke. Duke played great yesterday, but Xavier had a bit to do with that.
Well, I was a little late tuning in and I about fainted when I saw the score was UNC 26-25 over Valpo. I knew Carolina would still win handily, but overall, it was an ugly, ugly outing.
I do see severe problems with the interior defense and I think you had to SEE the game to understand what I am talking about. Valpo’s guys in general were just blowing right past our guys and outfighting them for loose balls, which hopefully, is indicative of nothing more than boredom on UNC’s part.
More concerning was the inability of Thompson, Hansbrough and Davis to stop Igbavboa down low. This has been a semi-persistent problem for Carolina the last two years as particularly epitomized in the first two Clemson games, and in the Kansas game where we seemed to play especially small.
Solutions? Davis is 6′ 10″ and seems to play tall. I think he just needs to learn the defensive position better. I only saw Zeller two games but to me, he was a 7 footer who played like he was 6′ 6″ and I am not sure he was the solution anyway. Zeller reminds me of Bob McAdoo, who was a pretty good rebounder and scorer, but didn’t like to mix it up down low(I only saw Mac in the pro’s though).
Maybe it is due to Carolina’s fast break style but I can only remember a couple of guy’s in our entire history who played really big and strong down low. Eric Montross comes to mind and so does Mitch Kupchak and possibly Brendan Haywood, although he was not a great player in college.
Most of our other great centers liked to play further away from the basket. Neither Bobby Jones, nor Sam Perkins nor Brad Daugherty, nor Rasheed Wallace, as great as they were, were really bangers. Scott May liked to bang, but listed generously at 6′ 9″, was a bit short, which was also true for J.R. Reid. The 1998 team really didn’t have a center and the current squad is like that somewhat with Hansbrough probably playing more of a Dave Cowens style than a Wes Unseld style of center.
For all its great history, UNC has never had a really great traditional center in the mold of Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Lew Alcindor and Bill Walton. We almost got Shaq but he wouldn’t have stayed around long anyway.
I think that the 1972 UCLA Bruins probably set the standard for the greatest team of the last 40 years. Like Carolina, they had great talent, although with Keith Wilkes and Bill Walton both making first team All America and going on to be great NBA players, UCLA probably had more top talent and less depth, althought they were still pretty deep. But the 1972 Bruins had Bill Walton at 6′ 11″ starting and had Swen Nater, also at 6′ 11″ coming off the bench. Both would go on to be excellent NBA centers.
The 1976 Indiana Hoosiers, who also went undefeated, also had excellent talent although not as much as the 1972 Bruins, but they did have a seven foot stopper in Kent Benson, who resembled the great seven foot stopper that the 1974 Wolfpack had in Tommy Burleson.
This doesn’t mean that a team has to have a great traditional center-type to win it all, Dave Cowens showed that with Boston when they upset the Bucks in 1973, but it definitely helps. All of these teams mentioned above won their title games easily. If you think about it, pretty much the only weakness that the 1993 Michigan Wolverines had was the lack of a true center, where they faced Montross and the Heels.
Carolina has never had anything come easy in its title games, so without setting off any alarms, we might want to see Davis develop some more on the defensive end down low. I hope he can do this because given that Hansbrough and Thompson are upper classmen, they probably are not going to get a lot better on the defensive end as stoppers.
^Then again, the NCAA Tournament is all about matchups. If the bracket breaks the right way, UNC may never face a team that has the kind of inside presence that bothers UNC interior defense. Pitt, UConn and Gonzaga all might be an issue in this respect but only if they actually end up playing them. Needless to say it is an area that needs to be worked on and there is plenty of time for that. And in one game in the Final Four with advantages at other positions on the court, it may be something they can workaround for one game.
I understand and I am only speaking with respect to whether or not this 2008-09 team can be a team “for the ages”, as opposed to merely winning a national title. I think every college basketball fan thinks this current UNC squad can win a national title.
But can they take their place among the all-time great college squads? Are they more like the 2005 Illinois squad which won its first 29 games and was an excellent, excellent team, or could they be more like the 1973 Bruins, generally regarded as the greatest team of all time over a period of seasons, from 1972 through 1974.
Our 1982 team is often cited as the greatest college team of all time, primarily because that team had two starters who ended up being in the Hall of Fame and another who had a great pro career. But it was evident against UVa and Georgetown that the 1982 Tar Heels had real problems with Ralph Sampson and Patrick Ewing. (Of course, who didn’t?)
Nevertheless, Mike Jordan really didn’t become Michael Jordan until that final game against Georgetown where he surprised even UNC fans with his performance. If both Jordan and Worthy don’t have the games of their careers up to that point, hitting 20 out of 30 shots between them, Georgetown would have won because Carolina could not stop Ewing. Ewing posted 23 points and ten boards while Perkins notched only ten points and seven boards.
Compare this to the 1974 NC State squad that had Tommy Burleson playing Bill Walton to a standstill, while Patrick Ewing pretty much had his way with Sam Perkins. I still think that the 1982 Tar Heels would have had major problems with big teams like the 1973 Bruins, 1974 Wolfpack and 1976 Hoosiers, who all had All American seven footers.
I hated the first half. The second was so-so. They better not be getting full of themselves. Hopefully Roy will knock some sense into them after they get back from holiday break. Lucky for us Valpo had to foul alot and turned it over as well. We turned it over way too much and I saw an absence of Wayne Ellington. Hopefully they were just distracted because of the looming break and not as practiced because of the travel. These are not the Heels we know and love. I knew something like this was coming, everyone sounded overconfident. Hopefully we get better when we face Rutgers because it won’t be pretty if we don’t.
“whether or not this 2008-09 team can be a team “for the ages”, as opposed to merely winning a national title.”
william, I have a great respect for you as a fan, and have found your descriptions of older teams to be fascinating, but is it fair to ever say “merely winning a national title?” I mean, to me, doing the latter automatically qualifies them as the former…
Well, NC State in 1983 and Villanova in 1985 both won national titles and nobody considers those teams to be great.
Some years teams slip through that are excellent teams but are not on anybody’s all time great team list. You could probably add the 1977 Marquette team and the Danny and the Miracles Kansas teams to this list of champions that had undistinguished seasons overall. It is pretty rare for a team to lose more than five games and win the title but those teams mentioned above all lost about nine games.
One interesting thing about yesterday. If I remember correctly, nobody has been within single digits of the Tar Heels in the second half this season. Yesterday the Heels led by ten points at the half. Valpo had two chances to take the margin under ten but missed their first shot and then missed a three pointer when trailing by 12 and then the margin went up to 28 or whatever it was at its height.
That is true. I was more talking about teams that were favored to win and did. I guess my point was that I don’t really care where they rank in history, because that is entirely subjective; I’m just trying to enjoy the ride, because we are unlikely to see a collection of players this good for a while. Like you said, no one has been with 10 in the second half, and they have had at least a 20 point lead in their last 10. They haven’t been perfect, but they have been impressive.
Rutgers will be interesting. On paper, they have some talented players, but they may be the softest 8-3 I’ve ever seen. This is a team that has lost at home to St. Bonaventure, Lehigh, and Binghamton, and beat Marist, Delaware St., Princeton, and Rider by a combined 16 points… There SOS is 339, which is about to go down, because there next game is against NJIT (aka Duke Tech), who is the 347th (out of 347) ranked team in DI.
My concern is the N.C. If we do that, that will help us out as a team in terms of what is the best college. Right now, UCLA, Kentucky enjoy more than we do, but another one will help us be regarded as the best college team of all-time. I really want to see Tyler get one.
I’m worried about Rutgers. Valpo could have easily beat us if we hadn’t got our heads in the games. Rutgers could beat us more easily than that if we come out slow and shooting cold.
Valpo could not have beaten us under any circumstances, let alone easily, regardless of where our heads were. The Rutgers game is in Chapel Hill and Rutgers has no chance whatsoever to win. Well, according to Pomeroy, Rutgers has a 1% chance to win but I think he overestimates.
BTW, ryan reid got a taste of his own medicine by pitt’s blair. i’m actually cheering for our fellow acc team but i have no sympathy for that guy.
That would be my thoughts as well Heeledsoul.
This may sound obvious, but in my humble opinion the biggest difference for us this year will be Deon Thompson. Tyler and Ty can’t get any better, Wayne will continue to be streaky, Danny will have a good season, but the Thompson/Stephenson position last year was weak. Deon seems to have picked it up greatly this year and decided to play some real basketball. My prediction is that after we’ve won the NC, that many will say it was Deon that pushed us over the top. He looks much better, more aggressive this year.
Chris,
You maybe right, but I think you have to include the addition of Ed Davis, who is a much more dynamic player than Alex was. Ed, in combination with the much improved Deon is the biggest difference between the two teams.
Anyone see this gem from De’Andre Haskins, the guy who intentionally fouled Hansbrough towards the end of the game??
“‘I think it’s disrespecting to the game of basketball to hop up and start fighting in the middle of the game,’ Haskins said. ‘All he had to do was get up and shoot the free throws.’”
Someone should tell Mr. Haskins that what really disrespects the game are cheap fouls at the end of lop-sided games…
How to spot a cheap foul:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/19/20081220/img/psp-north-carolina-valparai-80be7c12a439.html
For some reason, Ed hasn’t impressed me that much on the offensive end as I first expected him to. He misses a lot of easy shots in the paint, unlike Deon or Tyler. He does get some good clean-up baskets though. His defense is suspect, as I have seen him let people go by him, yet he does block shots though. There is some good and bad with him. And all of that probably should be expected as he is a freshmen. I do contend that every other college in the nation, including our rivals, would probably salivate if they knew they were getting him. One thing I do appreciate about him is his willingness to go the extra mile to save a possession. Deon Thompson has had some games where he looked like a caged beast, and others he didn’t look agressive much at all. Hopefully that primal instinct will manifest itself as the games go bye. I agree with C. Michael that it does increase our chances for success just having him on the team. Chris, I think you’re right about Deon. IF he can play like the dominant player he has at times consistently in the tournament play, we will be in great shape. Heck, we may be already.
Deon looks much better on the offensive end and seems to be making his free throws at a slightly higher percentage, which was a big weakness last season for him. He needs to continue his improvement here and together with Davis and Danny Green give the Heels a better presence downlow.
Deon Thompson is shooting 65% from the floor. I think Roy said it was very much a product of Thompson getting himself in good position and also making great decisions on when he should shoot the basketball.
Deon has definitely impressed me this year, especially with his aggressiveness. His straight up jumper has also improved, whereas last year it was the turnaround or nothing. His free throw shooting is still a concern, but he has improved at least.
Ed Davis has also been a surprise, and I’m not overly worried about his offensive production (this year at least). He has some pretty decent post moves, and that will get better with time. He is however the first legitimate shot blocker we’ve had since Haywood, and we really need that. The problem (as it was sometimes with Haywood) is that often he seems to try to set up for the block rather than play defense and keep his man from getting position. Hopefully he’ll learn to do both.
Davis has been good for us I think. Deon has been good too. Davis hasn’t been as good as I would have thought. Hopefully if we go all the way he won’t leave at hte end of the year.
according to the ncaa stats (through 12/14, minimum 5 FGs made), deon thompson is #19 in the nation in FG% (61.8%, 63 of 102) and is #1 in the acc.
there’s only one player from the more elite conferences who has a better FG% while attempting more shots:
#5 blake griffen (67.5%, 81 of 120)
other notable names include:
#1 onuaku (syracuse) – 79.4% on 50 of 63 shooting
#3 patterson (kentucky) – 71.4%, 48 of 64
#7 thabeet (uconn) – 66.7%, 40 of 60
#11 blair (pitt) – 64.3%, 54 of 84
#13 morgan (mich st) – 63.8%, 44 of 69
#17 samuels (louisville) – 62.7%, 42 of 67
#33 (#2 in acc) lawal (gt) – 58.9%, 53 of 90
this just shows how valuable thompson already is to the team.
but if i could point out one other improvement from last year…
ty lawson’s assist to turnover ratio: he averaged a 2.47 ratio in his first 2 years (378 to 153). through valpo, lawson is averaging a 4.87 this season. if he can keep this ratio up (above 3.00), that may be one of the top developments this year.
Lawson’s improvement has been startling. His A:TO ratio coming into this is was a UNC record, I believe. His current A:TO ratio is video-game ridiculous. Throw in the fact that his steal:TO ratio is just under 2:1, and there is really no other word to describe his play besides incredible.
yeah. you really have to net out the turnovers by subtracting the steals (turnovers one created) from the turnovers one committed. however, that is not possible since as c michael points out lawson has 30 steals to his measly 15 turnovers… so, 73 assists to -15 turnovers. that’s just not earthly.
in his first 2 years, lawson had 109 steals to 153 turnovers… i guess you can say that in 70 games lawson has played that time, he lost about 0.6 (44 net turns over 70) possessions a game, while helping a teammate score 378 times!
The crazy thing about Lawson is I still don’t think he has exerted himself fully on offense or defense. I honestly believe he could average 20+ points if he attacked the basket more regularly. I guess we really don’t need that from him, but I would like to see him play defense 100%. With his strength and quickness I doubt there are many point guards whom he couldn’t disrupt defensively.