What is it about UNC and end of game hard fouls by rival teams?
Shades of the Duke game in 2007 no doubt.
For those who did not see it, in the final few seconds NC State’s Ben McCauley commited a hard foul from behind as Mike Copeland went up for a dunk. McCauley made a clear play on the ball but made sure the foul was felt. In doing so he ended striking Copeland in the head knocking him to the floor. McCauley was called for an immediate intentional foul on the basis of how hard the foul was which seems to be a pattern in the ways referees are calling fouls. Copeland took exception to foul and jumped ugly with McCauley before the referee stepped in to move Copeland off before ejecting him(possibly at Roy’s request.) and Roy sent him to the locker room. Roy said afterward Copeland overreacted, McCauley apologized which Roy said was unnecessary and the UNC coach offered an apology to Sidney Lowe over Copeland’s actions.
First of all, Copeland was wrong. His reaction was understandable in respect to how he probably perceived what happened. Copeland never saw McCauley coming and as far as he knows he just got smacked in the head and knocked to the floor. From this point of view Copeland has plenty to be pissed about. At the same time, he needs to maintain control. In reality it was a hard foul but nothing so egregious it was worth Copeland getting himself tossed from the game. Sometimes hard fouls happen and this was a clear overreaction on Copeland’s part. As I said his perception in the heat of the moment got the best of him. At any rate I am sure Roy will be affording Copeland plenty of opportunities to think about what he did wrong.
What stands out to me more concerning McCauley is not the foul but the manner in which McCauley conducted himself on the court after the foul. Now, I do understand that McCauley manned up by offering an apology to Roy which was deemed unnecessary by the UNC coach. That still does not absolve McCauley from his talking smack in the immediate aftermath. When asked about it postgame this is what McCauley said:
Q: You did look like you were saying, “Not in my house.” Were you defending your turf?
A: Absolutely. He can do that on his own floor or whatever, but don’t come into our home building with the game over pretty much and try to dunk like that. It’s kind of disrespectful.
Now that’s funny. Based on what the scoreboard said and the fact Tyler Hansbrough had just dropped 31 points on the Wolfpack I would say the Heels did a lot of things “in your house” all afternoon. You can talk about defending your turf or house or whatever but committing a hard foul on the a bench warmer is little like hitting a looter in what’s left of your living room to stop him from smashing your coffee table after the rest of his gang has already burned most of your house to the ground. If McCauley was so concerned about what UNC was doing in his house, maybe he should have done more than score five points.
That, more than anything else, is why Copeland should have handled it better. If an opposing player is willing to commit a hard foul over some notion that one dunk at the end of the game is somehow disrespectful despite the smackdown your teammates have just administered, then let him. The worst thing you can do is let that overblown sense of bravado provoke you into casting a bad light on your team’s win.
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I felt Frasor (senior) should have known better and just dribbled the time out, so I put some blame on him. McCauley did what he should have done (albeit a little hard) and Copeland looked like an idiot.
Roy handled it very well.
My biggest worry now is the status of our bench and Ginyard.
“Absolutely. He can do that on his own floor or whatever, but don’t come into our home building with the game over pretty much and try to dunk like that. It’s kind of disrespectful.”
Haha. Thats crap. I am extremley mad. Woohoo he apologized, big whoop. So? That doesn’t mean he meant it. Not in our house? Yeah deal with it. Cope should not have reacted like that. That doesn’t mean the foul was necessary.
Copeland knows you cannot fight or pretend you are going to fight. That is just the rule.
Copeland wasn’t ejected. Roy decided to have him go to the locker room early (things might’ve gotten even uglier if Cope stayed in to shoot his FTs), asked one of the referees to escort him there, and then put in Patrick Moody as an “injury” (hey, Cope did get hit on the head) substitute and had him shoot Cope’s free throws.
The official box score had the referees assessing a technical foul on both Copeland and McCauley. No one was ejected, and play resumed with Carolina taking two free throws and the ball (standard procedure following the State intentional foul; the double techs cancel each other out). Dykes and Nessler didn’t know what the heck they were talking about (surprise, surprise).
My position is this. It was a hard foul on Copeland that could have had implications of major injury. I expect a player who has just endured this to display some kind of reaction as he did. He has sat on the bench this year to see how our bigs get hit and banged in the paint. Of course, most of this is just basketball related type stuff one should expect. There have been several incidences this season that our bigs have had to endure that the entity that is supposed to be the law & order of the game have failed to call. Reid knocked Hansbrough nearly off the court on a rebound attempt, yet no call was made. Copeland is on the bench witnessing this type of action. He, along with everyone else, knows our bigs can’t afford to seek retribution for these type of hits, and he also knows that our opposing teams know we can’t afford to have our bigs in trouble. He may have taken part in making a statement that “enough is enough”. Our men in stripes are supposed to be doing this job for us.
If it were up to me, I’d sit down and tell Copeland that our university is not about this type of play. I would sit him out a game. But I would also be cautious about criticizing him in public forum. His actions weren’t that bad considering the foul that initiated it. Other schools out there in this conference, you know who I am talking about, would have made no apology on this. As a matter of fact, they’d be saying what a sorry low life it must have took to do this to Copeland, and that actions warrented the “re-action”. I would not come down to hard on him for this. This may be more about making a statement for our bigs as it was just simply that play alone as well.
Interesting how McCauley says that Copeland was being disrespectful. Even though he nearly took Copeland’s head off.
Yes, Bobby should have dribbled out the time, but Mike Copeland averages like .001 points a game. If he had a chance for an easy two against a rival, I say OK. You can look at it from two angles, but no matter what it was ugly all around. However, if Copeland dunks the ball, who cares? However if McCauley’s flagrant foul leads to an injury, how is that protecting your “turf”? And let’s be honest, the RBC center ain’t NC State’s turf. You’d have to win there for it to be your turf. Maybe it’s the Hurricane’s turf, but not State’s.
totally agreed heelyeah. bobby was just being a good teammate. and cope acted out in the heat of the moment after his life flashed before his eyes. stupid, yes. but how can most folks blame him? most of us would’ve done the same. it takes a supernatural being like tyler to hold back like he does. and he still gets criticized for jumping back up with his eyes wide open. i think coach roy’s reaction was an example of COMPLETE class. you can’t get better than that. no “cope was the real victim here” talk from coach roy. i love that he is the coach of my beloved tar heels!
While I don’t ever want to see Roy do the “K” thing and talk endlessly about how Copeland was a victim, I also don’t want to see him criticize his own player to a certain degree. It is great to be humble, but not to a fault.
Did not the play in question happen in a two on one situation? What team doesn’t try to score in that situation? Though it was not horrible or anything, it was kinda a cheap shot. Calling it an intentional seemed appropriate. And while Copeland deserves some extra running in practice and some dressing down, all he really did was look pissed and go towards McCauley, not exactly Juan Marichal. And, to end up this bitchy late night post, what’s up with the other State player pushing Copeland after the fact? Am I the only one who noticed this?
As I said over at the 850 blog, this whole situation is being held up by Wolfpack Nation as classless on our part and honorable on McCauley’s part. For what it’s worth, Roy had cleared the bench, and it was a fast break – I would have had a lot more problem if we had been passing the ball around and someone jacks up – and makes – a 3 with no time left.
But over there, the Wuffies are treating this like Rick Barnes woofing at Dean Smith, as symbolic of standing up to UNC.
Frasor probably should have pulled it out. But he didn’t, and McCauley hammered Copeland. Copeland popped up and puffed out, clearly to Roy’s chagrin. I thought the resulting situation was handled well on all counts.
My question to State Fan is, at what point is it not running up the score? Technically, if we were up 5 with less than 3 seconds left, there is no need to dunk it there either, but does McCauley do that if the margin were only 5? Does McCauley do that at the 8 minute mark and we’re up 15 and claim he was defending his house? Does McCauley hammer Thompson or Hansbrough like that? (OK, bad question, we know he would have taken any chance he had to lay out TH)
And no, Charles, you are not the only person to notice Fells shove Copeland as Les Jones was pushing Copeland away.
I also don’t think you will hear Roy paint Copeland as a vicitm – his very public act of literally removing Copeland from the court shows you what Roy thought of it. I imagine Roy will be asked about it and his response will be something like “Mike is a youngster and he responded like youngsters do when they believe they have been wronged. We have explained our expectations in that situation and he understands.” and that will probably be the end of it from Roy’s prespective.
Actually I think Copeland did a very dis respectful thing, he did not need to be dunking the ball that’s bad form and not how UNC is suppose to play.And for saying Ben hit Copeland in the head he didn’t if you watched the replays he hits copeland on the shoulder, and he was going for the ball, and I saw one comment on one site that said h was trying to choke him, hahahahahahaha, yeah right. Yall are saying he doesn’t get much time and deserves to score, ok, but a layup is fine, but UNC fans would be pissed if Duke was winning at UNC and they dunked with 1.9 seconds left.And Lowe did say that NCSU should have kept playing cause the game was not over till the buzzer sounded, and the foul was a bit hard, but not flagrant as some people are saying it was. And as HeelYeah said NCSU has to win game in there to call it their court… that is disrespectful itself, all Ty or Copeland should have done was runout 6, six seconds, off the clock and they would have had a win with no “hard” foul. Also an apology is an apology so if Ben apologizes and Roy says the apology was not necessary, at least he was man enough to do it, unlike Copeland who did not say anything to Lowe after he ran at Ben. Plus it was a bad move on Copeland trying to start a fright at NCSU cause I’m sure there are more people who would backup State than UNC in an all out brawl. And that is my say and I am not biased to either team in this call, I like to watch and see how the game is played, if a bad play is called on the other team I still yell, if the other team gets a good dunk or block I go “ohhhhhh did you see that.” I dont wack to UNC.
THF: Just because no apology was mentioned does not mean it did not happen at some point. Hopefully Copeland did apologize afterward and if not that is something Roy will deal with.
As for McCauley you can say an “apology is an apology” but if you read his comments he seems to be standing by the play. Fine the foul was not that egregious but I find his reasons asinine. I think the larger point where McCauley is concerned is the whole “not in my house” bravado being exercised on a 3rd string center with 2 seconds left. It is laughable. Does McCauley feel like more of a man since he committed a hard foul on a Heels’ bench warmer after getting his rear end handed to him all day by Tyler Hansbrough? It is a joke to me for a player to say he is defending his turf AFTER the starters for the other team have left the game and AFTER they just finished up doing a variety of things “in your house.”
And Lowe may say the game was not over but McCauley said it was and that is why he chose to commit the foul. Which is it? If it is within State’s purview to leave the starters in and play until the buzzer sounds, certainly no one can fault UNC for doing the same with reserves on the floor.
My question to State Fan is, at what point is it not running up the score? Technically, if we were up 5 with less than 3 seconds left, there is no need to dunk it there either, but does McCauley do that if the margin were only 5? Does McCauley do that at the 8 minute mark and we’re up 15 and claim he was defending his house? Does McCauley hammer Thompson or Hansbrough like that? (OK, bad question, we know he would have taken any chance he had to lay out TH)
That is actually not a bad question. McCauley did not go after either Thompson or Hansbrough with that kind of aggression when the game mattered. McCauley had five points and Hansbrough torched him for 31 so for all the talk of defending one’s turf McCauley did a piss-poor job of it until he saw Copeland going for a dunk.
As for the rest of it…they have so few moments they can cling to in Wolfpack nation, maybe they can milk this one for awhile.
I agree with THF. Why was McCauley still in the game at this point? Unlike Coach K and now obviously el-Sid, I pull my starters when the other team pulls theirs. Of course, maybe it was more a matter of equals playing equals. No doubt about it; if Copeland was at State he’d be playing major minutes off of their bench!
sorry, but the throwing of stuff by the fans (even at Roy) tips the scales on this one.
I saw no way that McCauley was going for the ball. All I saw was him hammering Cope, Cope getting incredibly mad and going after him. I then saw some of the coaches trying to hold the bench players back as Roy went out on the court. State players were also getting involved in the slight scuffle.
I really don’t think Cope was trying to start a fight or anything with McCauley, I think he was simply pissed that he wacked him like that. The State fans should not have been throwing things onto the court. That’s kind of disrespectful too.
I’m sure that Cope apologized or will apologize in the near future for going after McCauley like that. That just isn’t how its done at UNC wether were playing a rival or not. Speaking of apologies I really don’t think McCauley meant his. He may have apologized but he defended his play afterward. I think he was apologizing because it was polite, which suprises me.
What is wrong with dunking the ball? If you sit on the bench, never get any playing time, and get the chance to make a spectacular play against a rival, who wouldn’t take it? If McCauley or another State player was in the same situation they would have done it.
Aquateen. Yes we would be pissed if a Dukie tried to do this in the same situation. BUT I BELIEVE, we wouldn’t have committed this type of action, and that’s where the problem enlies. Speaking of how I know this, did Tyler Hansbrough (otherwise known as Psycho T) commit a harsh reaction when he nearly got his nose broke? The answere is NO. We’ll leave that type of stuff up to our rivals. So equating what we might would do to what was done to us yesterday lacks a firm premise since we have been in that situation and didn’t.
McCauley, at least from my vantage point, made no attempt at the ball. I understand that at times you’re going to foul people intentionally, but DO NOT go for someone’s head. Bump the body, hit the arm, but you shouldn’t go for someone’s head.
As far as Copeland goes, I think he got pissed because he knew it was intentional, and knew McCauley made zero attempt at the ball. I wish he wouldn’t have reacted the way he did, but I challenge everyone to keep their cool when someone wraps their arm around your head while your in the air. It’s happened to me playing basketball, and I wasn’t as lucky as I landed hard on my back. To a point I’m defending Copeland only because I’ve felt what can happen as a result. I wish it wouldn’t have ended that way because now the ABC’ers will run this nonstop in the media and take it out of context, but I think Copeland had every right to get upset.
In terms of Roy handling it, absolutely classy. He didn’t play the victim card, he apologized to the tomato for what happened, and then it was done.
Same ol’, same ol’. Why do the guys keep getting beat up at the end of the game? Roy, have some class. We like to win, but no need for last second dunks when we’re already up by 15 or whatever. Coach K sure wouldn’t stoop to this; control your players – starters or bench; call the right play so that your players don’t need to decide what is right and what isn’t right.
One good thing Roy did… blamed his own player rather than the loser from the Pack. But he should be blaming himself.
Next time this happens, we should expect worst.
It is not up to McCauley or any other player to enforce his notions of required “respect,” much less to do so by a hard foul from behind that had the potential to cause serious injury.
I watched the re-play several times. McCauley was not going for the ball. He was going for Copeland’s head or neck, making sure to get close enough to the ball so that a pretext could not be dismissed out of hand. But it was still a pretext.
That said, others here are correct in noting that Copeland knows the rules, or ought to know them, and they include not fighting or making aggressive moves in anticipation of fighting. I think Copeland’s culpability is there, but is mitigated by a number of factors, including a very frustrating season for him, the hardness of the foul, its location, and the fact that he did not see it coming.
Minor discipline is warranted. He is a Carolina player and therefore a Carolina representative. As such he is held to the higher standard that has been our tradition from Dean Smith on. But basically it’s time to put it to rest.
“But basically it’s time to put it to rest.”
Amen. 24-Hour Rule definitely applies here.
The biggest gripe I have with this whole mess is that it gives Pack fans something to whine about (other than officiating), when the only thing they should be saying today is “Why in the hell does our ‘rival’ keep whipping our ****** game after game?” Of course, I think we all know the answer to that one…
“Death Wish” airing on AMC right now. Just sayin…
NC State basketball…
What I find interesting is that it seems that UNC is the target of thuggery when the game is over i.e we have a big lead and time’s almost run out. dook runs up the score more than any other team and is given a pass by most teams. I’d love to see McCauley do pull his thuggery on dook…but that never happens…too bad.
OK here shows it and if you watch without being biased you will see that MC does hit him, but it was not that hard, it was just because he was in the air and Calling it thuggery, MC did not even raise his hands when Cope ran straight at him, and you said he was just pissed and was not trying to start a fight? what! running at a player and grabbing his shirt is starting a fight, and lets all whack off to Hansboro, he had a bad game at FSU, and Ben had a bad game this game, but who has the higher recruiting class, who has more walk-ons, exactly they even mention it here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcNt3hbtR70 .
So And the balled up magazine was thrown at Copeland. And you may just say I’m a NCSU fan and being biased my self, but I watched the game with a family that all of their kids and themselves are alumnus, and they agree with me that it was a foul, and a bit hard, but he did not need to dunk it, and he did not need to run at Ben he could have just taken the foul and shot free throws and get points like he was complaining about, and actually he might get time at NCSU cause Lowe likes to play around with the team and see what works, since we are still building the program, but whacking to UNC and thinking everything they do is not wrong, that means you are ignorant.
PS I doubt any of you people went to UNC or attend there now, so no word in the play for you, and I bet most of you are republicans who like UNC, Do you know all of the UNC students voted for Obama, so if you cheer for UNC you cheer for Obama. I like Obama and voted for him gobama. rathskellar68 if you watched if Ben was going for his neck or head his elbow would not have been on his shoulder, and his hand would not have been inches away from the ball. Soooooo you are wrong and You say only Duke runs up the score, as I recall last year UNC ran games up into the triple digits and the other team was in the sixties. So get your facts straight.
RIP Kay Yow you will be missed.
THF, I typically agree with your viewpoints on things Heels related on the 850 The Buzz blog, but I think you’re off base here, along with a good number of your compatriots.
First, McCauley absolutely was going for the ball. No question. Review the footage and you can clearly see him swing his arm downward at the ball and his right arm which was elevating the ball toward the basket. It was a hard foul, but not an excessive one.
Second, I think a lot of folks here are fooling themselves if they think for one second that they’d either tolerate the Heels giving up an easy dunk at the end of a blowout or not DEMAND a similar foul from Copeland, Thompson, Hansbrough, etc. in that same situation. While the concept of “pride” may be lost on some here, you do have to maintain it in the face of a tough loss. Pride should not allow you to roll over and let the opposing team stroll to the basket and get an easy dunk. If Copeland wanted those two points as souvenirs from his mop-up time in the game, he was going to have to earn them. McCauley made sure of that fact AND ANY HEEL FAN WOULD DEMAND IT OF THEIR TEAM IN THE SAME SITUATION.
Third. THF, you in particular seem to be taking exception to his statements in the press after the fact, about McCauley defending his home court. I just don’t see how, despite looking through light blue glasses, you can’t expect a Tar Heel in that same situation to say the exact same thing. It was in response to a direct question on the matter, first of all…it was not something Ben said unprompted. Irregardless of what Tyler did or what the final score was, no one playing in this kind of game was going to ever “let up” and let the opposition get anything easy at the end. Again, it goes back to pride, about not letting the other team try and show you up on your home court. Roy obviously thought Copeland’s attempt to score at the end was pretty bush league, given the fact he felt McCauley had nothing to apologize for. If Roy can see it that way, why can’t the rest of Tar Heel Nation?
It’s done, the game’s over, and were it not for Copeland charging at McCauley we would’ve been done talking about this foul many hours ago.
If you are concerned about seemingly being disrespected in your “house,” how about playing some defense? Earn your respect by playing hard, that’s all I’m saying.
James,
First, I am on record saying I thought it was a play on the ball and it was nothing more than a hard foul. I also said the same thing about Gerald Henderson two years ago. ‘
Speaking for myself I don’t buy into that whole “defend your turf” mentality, especially at the end of a game. I thought Sidney Lowe’s comments were interesting because he basically said the game is not over until the buzzer sounds and if you do not want guys getting dunks on you then get back on defense. Again, I have no issue with the foul per se but with McCauley’s post foul remarks. I have no problem with the foul in terms of it being a basketball play to stop the shot. I have been critical of UNC players this season for committing weak fouls that still permit the basket. It was a hard foul, yes it resulted in a nasty fall but Copeland should have let it go that. My issue, and I think I wrote this pretty clearly above is the “not in my house” bravado coming from a player who had a paltry five points, got toasted by Hansbrough for 31 and just had his team handled on their home court. UNC disrespected State all day. State got owned on their home court and only when the game was out of reach and he was dealing with a third string center who spent half the season recovering from a knee injury did he decided to defend his house. If McCauley had said it was a hard foul but he was playing hard and wanted to stop the basket as a matter of making a basketball play, then that would have been fine. But he did not do that, decided to talking about “his house” and even goaded Copeland further while Courtney Fells came over and pushed Copeland as the ref was backing him off. Then some fans decided to throw objects on the floor.
Bottom line is Copeland was wrong because the foul did not strike me as anything really egregious but let’s not pretend McCauley chest thumping smack talking at the end of a loss which he did very little to prevent according to the stat sheet is anything other than a player who is all talk and short on action when it actually mattered.
I have never been particularly impressed with McCauley in interviews throughout his time at State. I don’t think he’s a bad kid, but he doesn’t come across as the most thoughtful/insightful guy in the world. So when a reporter asks him a question along the lines of “Was that a territorial kind of thing there where you were trying to protect your turf?”, he’s going to take that angle and go with it. He did some talking on the court, but I chalk that up to heat of battle bravado that lots of folks would be prone to in that situation. To fault him for not doing more in the game to “protect his turf” does not make sense to me, and comes across as condescending. He tried, but he was unable to do so because he is not talented enough. If he were quicker, he could have done more to “protect his house” throughout the game. In fact, maybe he could have gotten back fast enough to avoid committing a hard foul.
It was an unfortunate ending to the game, but I think all it does is give fans something to get in a tizzy about. Now we can call each others players and fans “classless” (the idea of “class” describing participants and fans in the context of sports is a pet peeve of mine) and overanalyze the actions of every player, coach referee, and fan in the building.
I prefer to move on and not get into a pissing match.
As Frasor was dribbling the ball down the court I literally was screaming at the TV for him to dribble it out. I certainly had no idea what was going to take place although I knew State fans would be up in arms if Carolina tried to score again.
The sad part is that we aren’t talking about Tyler and Ty’s great play as well as the “Curious Case of Courtney Fells”
If you are concerned about seemingly being disrespected in your “house,” how about playing some defense?
I believe he did. His defense on that play is the topic of discussion.
My issue, and I think I wrote this pretty clearly above is the “not in my house” bravado coming from a player who had a paltry five points, got toasted by Hansbrough for 31 and just had his team handled on their home court. UNC disrespected State all day.
So, had the hard foul come from someone other than McCauley — perhaps Tracy Smith or even Simon Harris coming off the bench like Copeland — would that have changed your opinion on the matter? McCauley was the guy there back on defense. Hats off to Tyler for scoring 31 and to the Heels for winning the game, but I guess I fail to see how any of that matters when there’s a few seconds left and two bench warmers are trying to run a 2-on-1 fastbreak when they’re up by 15. Whether the Pack is down six or down 100, there’s no way I’m letting Joe Scrub score two souvenir points just because. McCauley kept it clean, going for the ball hard to ensure that Copeland couldn’t even throw up a wild circus shot. As such, this is nothing like the Henderson situation.
let’s not pretend McCauley chest thumping smack talking at the end of a loss which he did very little to prevent according to the stat sheet is anything other than a player who is all talk and short on action when it actually mattered.
Again, McCauley didn’t broach the subject…the reporter asked, “Were you defending your turf?” That’s as leading a question as you’ll ever be asked. The reporter downright guided him into the “chest thumping smack talk,” as you called it. He didn’t come off half-cocked and started spewing trash to anyone that would listen…it was a direct response to a leading question.
I don’t buy into this notion that we would have done the same thing. We have been in this situation before and didn’t respond this way. Show me otherwise.
The reporter broached the subject because McCauley said “not in my house” on the court. If McCauley says nothing the reporter does not ask the question.
My point is that I come from the school of thought that if you are getting smoked, you keep your mouth shut. You have no room to talk about defending your house when you are getting beat by the opposing team. I have no issue with McCauley making a play to stop a shot. He should have made the play and then walked away from it. Copeland should have taken the foul and then shot his free throws. When McCauley was asked about it afterward he should have said: “I was trying to make a play to stop a shot and it is unfortunate it turned out that way” Spare me the other stuff, it is just laughable given what the scoreboard says.
THF,
UNC did not disrespect State all day, they played the game the right way and did not try to showboat or show up State at any point. Until Frasor and Copeland tried to go Sportscenter at the end. I have no problem with the foul, or with McCauley’s comments. While I would like to say that Copeland should have handled it better after getting fouled, which he had to know he was going to get hammered there given the situation, he is just a kid who was clocked pretty hard, albeit legally.
I won’t say he should not have gotten up and gone after McCauley, but I will ask you what McCauley should have done when he did? Should he have asked for forgiveness after feeling that Copeland was trying to embarrass and disrespect State like that? No, he didn’t back down, and he showed a little bit of heart in defending his turf. I’m just happy to see him act like he cares, because so often it seems that he doesn’t.
HP has it spot on. Frasor should have dribbled out the clock, which would have been the classy, and expected thing from a UNC upperclassman, to do.
Either win with class or lose with dignity. UNC was winning with class until that point. McCauley was trying to defend State’s dignity with the foul, and I have no problems with it. But hey, don’t take my word for it, take your beloved Roy’s words. You know that if he felt that McCauley was wrong, he would not say that there is nothing for him to apologize for. I’m going to bet that he knows more about winning with class than any of us, and also more about the perceived “unwritten rules” of basketball. I’d be willing to bet that Roy is more pissed about Copeland going for the basket than anything else.
Roy Williams has shown that he is one of the classiest people, not just coaches, around. UNC fan should let it go and bask in the win, while knowing that you have a coach who wants things done the right way and does not let himself get fooled by any tinted glasses. Roy showed us a lot when he put the Jayhawk sticker on his sweater last year. He showed that he is all class, and that he is willing to say and do things that he believes in despite how it will play with the fans or suits at the Hill. So like I said, don’t take it from me, take it from Roy.
Please feel free to hammer me, I really don’t care.
Maybe all the coaches need to get together and write up some standards for play during garbage time.
Once again, we see that while State still had starters on the floor and had not, apparently, given up, Carolina, on the other hand, was expected to just let the clock run out. State could have been holding the ball for the entire 35 seconds its last few possessions but they did not. They kept firing shots, many of them three’s.
Guys like Copeland get very little playing time. Why should they not be permitted to play real basketball while they are out there?
Why should a loser, NC State, dictate whether or not UNC’s subs get the benefit of some actual playing experience.
This type of complaint gets tiresome and it is usually NC State fans who do most of this type of bellyaching. Perhaps, the losing coach in these scenarios should be given a white flag to wave and the game could just end at that point.
But if you are going to keep the game going and, especially if you are going to keep playing competitively on the offensive end of the court, I am not sure why the other team is supposed to take the air out of the ball for you.
Obviously, a questionable foul might be merited at the end of a close game because the outcome is in doubt.
There is no merit whatsoever to what McCauley did because the possibility of permanently injuring the opponent far outweighed any benefit to the game. This is standard negligence analysis, accepted by every court in the land.
A person’s actions are only reasonable when the benefits thereof outweigh any foreseeable costs. McCauley’s foul did not meet this standard and his trash-talking immediately afterward only goes to prove that his intentions were dishonorable. Mr. McCauley is fortunate that UNC is unlikely to take any action against him when he comes to Raleigh, but a lesser coach might put Copeland on McCauley for a few minutes in that game and someone with lesser integrity than we here at THF possess, might actually enjoy seeing Copeland provide some recompense.
But a second thrashing of the least of the Big Four will have to suffice.
Like I said, I just don’t think McCauley needed to make it about “defending his house” or such nonsense as that. It was a basketball play. Say so. Say you were trying to stop the shot and leave it that. Make Copeland look like an even bigger idiot by framing the foul as a basketball play and not some act of divine retribution to save your dignity.
But if you are going to keep the game going and, especially if you are going to keep playing competitively on the offensive end of the court, I am not sure why the other team is supposed to take the air out of the ball for you.
I don’t have a problem with Carolina continuing to play on. Sure, it would’ve been nice if Carolina had pulled to ball out and dribbled out the clock. But they kept playing and I have no problem with that.
But with that comes consequences….like getting fouled if you attempt a shot in that situation. Copeland learned that the hard way, I suppose, and Roy defended McCauley’s right to defend the play as he did.
Take your cue from Roy, Heels fans…McCauley has nothing to apologize for.
William, your comments have been articulated well, and that is exactly my position verbatim on this matter. I don’t know why it is so difficult for others to see it this way. Keep up the good work. Can’t wait till the next game where we get involved in topics we all agree on which is winning the game at hand, although I will bet most everyone will differ in what method we need to use in winning. At least it will be a win and we will all be happy in our own way.
I don’t care if he apologizes or not, and like most basketball fans, Carolina fans rarely think about NC State or McCauley. Their games are not televised that much since the end of the Sendek era.
I am more interested in talking about the bubble pop of Wake Forest, but simply wrote to provide a legal framework for McCauley’s actions, as we see more and more prosecutors who will charge individuals for actions during sporting events and more civil lawsuits stemming from such actions.
Except for the fact that Copeland was not injured, McCauley’s actions differed very little from those of Gerald Henderson’s two years ago.
McCauley is very fortunate that he did not permanently injure Copeland on a meaningless play that impressed no one, except apparently for some NC State fans.
James, although Roy is our great coach, he is not the only entity that is soley responsible for saying what is right & wrong in every matter. I agree he has been a very classy coach who usually speaks the truth. That does not mean he has the right position on every matter. I don’t think that McCauley needs to come out with a press-type apology, but he did say it was a hard foul given for the sake of “defending his turf”. What I will not allow is for someone to say we would have done the same thing. I am not buying that since we have been in that situation before, without the game ending theatrics of such. Please remind me of the last time we did this to an opposing team showing us up.
The return game in Chapel Hill should be a lot of fun.
I have read several blogs that have said we would have done the same thing. I will not tolerate this. When is the last time we lost at home and responded in this manner? Please show me some evidence that displays our guys doing the same thing. That is a pretty serious charge to equate us with these antics. I do not recall any of our players doing this in a home defeat, at least in recent memory.
^^^^^^^
And not for the sake of “defending our turf”. We will leave such thuggery for our rivals to administer.
^ Hey, pass the brie and chardonnay. How’s the weather up there?
JB,
It’s hard to say whether or not UNC would have done the same thing because UNC so rarely gets beat, let alone, blown out at home. There was some chippiness from UNC during the 8-20 season, and Makhtar N’Diaye certainly was prone to moments of being a jackass. Also, there were pockets of fans who acted pretty poorly after the Maryland game last year.
I hear ya James.
Yeah, C. Michael. I recall the “throwing of the ball onto the court” he did in the Duke ’98 game. And I am sure our fans have had their moments. But this is about a player defending his turf. I say again, when is the last time we did this in a home defeat?
[...] the Ben McCauley hard foul on Michael Copeland, Tar Heel Fan wrote on his blog that is had “shades of the Duke game in 2007.” Maybe it was a one-off line, but it is something that should be examined. Especially when [...]
James — First let me thank you for stating opposing arguments directly and answering them directly. I believe some of your answers are incorrect, however.
First, simply because Roy Williams takes position X (in this instance, that there was no need for McCauley to apologize) does make position X correct. An argument stands on its merits, not on its author. And many of us Tar Heel fans have taken issue with Roy on any number of things. So I don’t believe that invoking him per se advances your position.
Second, you say this: “Hats off to Tyler for scoring 31 and to the Heels for winning the game, but I guess I fail to see how any of that matters when there’s a few seconds left and two bench warmers are trying to run a 2-on-1 fastbreak when they’re up by 15. Whether the Pack is down six or down 100, there’s no way I’m letting Joe Scrub score two souvenir points just because. McCauley kept it clean, going for the ball hard to ensure that Copeland couldn’t even throw up a wild circus shot. As such, this is nothing like the Henderson situation.”
As an initial matter, I would have hoped that you would refrain from referring to Frasor with the derisive terms “bench warmer” and “Joe Scrub” even though those terms are, as a technical matter, accurate. Frasor has given a great deal to the team, possibly at the cost of a long-term injury to his leg. This does not entitle him to sainthood — injuries during clean play being part of the normal risks of sport — but it does entitle him, in my view, to a different branding than you gave him in that excerpt.
Second, McCauley most certainly did not “ke[ep] it clean.” He was correctly called for a flagrant foul. Since when is that “clean?”
Beyond those relatively minor points, your principal argument is erroneous. You say that there’s “no way” you would allow these “bench warmers” their “souvenir points.” Well, “no way” includes a lot of territory, doesn’t it? Taken as stated, it would permit, for example, an elbow to the eyesocket if that were the only means of preventing a “disrespectful” dunk. Is that too to be permitted to defend the honor of “my house?” If not, why not? And how could McCauley know that his foul would NOT hit Copeland’s eye? Was his control of the play that precise? Or did he just not care, the honor of “my house” being the only ostensible guiding standard?
I agree with you that pride is an indispensable part of team play, and so I do not entirely concur with THF that it’s all macho baloney. But for the most part, THF has the better of the argument. Pride is fine if taken in the sense of determination to win within the rules and to give your all for the team. It is not fine — indeed it is a fast road to thuggery — if taken in the sense that McCauley all but said he did — namely, as a pretext to belt an opposing player who has beaten you to the basket on a play that McCauley, employing previously unannounced “principles” ensconsed in his 21 year-old mind, viewed as inconsistent with the required degree of “respect” for the house and — although he’s shrewd enough not to say it — for himself.
Yes, that’s the part that’s been missing here. It wasn’t all about “the house,” even if that rationale were sufficient, which, for the reasons stated, it was not. It was about McCauley. He was ticked off at the result of the game and even more ticked off that his inattention to defense had permitted the “bench warmer” to beat him, a starter, to the basket. In other words, it was more a case of straight-out bad temper than McCauley has ever admitted. Do you disagree?
Finally, you do not and could not credibly deny that McCauley’s actions could have resulted in serious injury to Copeland. Do you believe that knowingly creating a risk like that is worth it, in the name of chest-thumping “respect” (or on any other grounds for that matter)?
I had told myself, and had said here, that I thought the whole thing was overblown and that it was best to move on, but your comments raise important issues about the ethos of sport going beyond this incident. Thus, like Michael Corleone, it has “drawn me back in.”
Rathskellar, I appreciate your position on this. Seems like you, me, and William are in the minority on our thinking of this matter.
I have to say that No Blood does raise some interesting points.
The State-UNC rivalry probably peaked about 1977, which was the year that Duke got back on track after being pretty mediocre for about ten years and dismal for about six years. The two rivalries stayed about at the same level until 1984 when Duke and Carolina took off to another level entirely. (You also probably had the 1969-1971 period where South Carolina was UNC’s most hated rival and the 1980-1983 period where UVa probably was, where were big inter-state rivalries at the time.)
This was due to three things. First, Valvano and Dean Smith liked each other and it was pretty hard for Carolina fans to dislike Jimmy V. Second, Carolina fans found it easy to dislike Coach K, and Duke soon got to be just as good and maybe even better, as a program than UNC during the 1988-1992 years and also during the 1999-2004 years.
Obviously, television is the other thing. Duke is probably the most popular team on the east coast. UNC may be the most popular team in the nation at large and certainly has more fans in North Carolina than Duke, Wake and State put together. The Duke-Carolina rivalry is much better to sell nationally than the Duke-State rivalry, which is more of a local rivalry, sort of like Kansas-Missouri.
So, with the Duke-UNC game, ESPN has it all. A rivalry which is between an excellent public and an excellent private university, and which is both local and interregional, in a sense.
I think Wake Forest fans view UNC as the team they most like to beat, but most Carolina fans see Wake as more of an annoyance than as a team to hate. We do respect their school and many of us might have considered attending Wake if it were not so expensive.
I don’t believe that is true with respect to NC State. I don’t recall too many of my UNC friends saying that they even applied to NC State, which seems to have more of a rural fan base and student make-up.
One point to note, when asked later about the pass Bobby said he was just trying to get a player involved who normally didn’t get to score. I’d say that is a senior thing to do, and the right thing. It is just unfortunate that it all turned out this way. I honestly don’t think Bobby/Copeland were trying to “run up the score”, and I don’t think McCauley was trying to hurt anybody. However, to err on the side of caution, McCauley should’ve probably just let it go.
James in W. Springs, the weather up here is fine. If by weather you mean having a highly successful basketball program. How’s the weather in Raleigh? No sunshine there in what, 20+ years? I’ll sip my chardonnay and watch wins any day of the week versus chewing tobacco and watching a glorified high school team play while my sister gives me a back massage. Nothing like idiotic stereotypes, eh?
JB — Thanks. I think we are joined by uncgirl, but still in the minority. I don’t mind that. Part of life. I’ll be interested to see what James’s response is, if he chooses to make one.
Remind me not to piss off HeelYeah ;>/
I’m on the same page as rathskeller68, William and my friend JB, so dittos in lieu of a long post stating the same opinions.
Well, it didn’t really piss me off, it’s just that the whole wine/whine and cheese thing gets old after a while. I’m sure State grads get tired of the whole redneck thing too. I grew up in rural Wayne county, and there were a lot of State fans/grads around (in my family as well). We always enjoyed the rivalry, and we could talk junk to each other because we lived the life so to speak and were part of the rivalry. However, with State’s decline it seems like the rivalry has taken a turn towards more nastiness than I remember in my younger days. That’s another bad aspect of the Wal-Mart fan (though some good has come of that also), in that a lot of folks have no idea what/who they’re rooting for, they just know UNC is a winner and jump on the bandwagon. Then you get the ABC’ers, who really don’t understand the rivalry either.
It’s sort of like when my wife and I were in Charlotte the night of our bowl loss to WVU in December. We went out to eat downtown afterwards and were approached (while we quietly sat at our table no less) by a half-drunk WVU fan. He asked us “Did you lose your ties?” When I got him to repeat himself about 3 times (he was slurring a bit) so as to understand him, I then asked what he was talking about. He then informed me that he thought you needed to wear a tie to go to UNC, the implications being obvious. I decided to let it slide and told him he should probably lay off the sauce but to enjoy his meal and his team’s well deserved victory. However, I wanted to say “I thought you needed to be married to your sister and missing a few teeth to go to West Virginia”, but I didn’t. The funny thing is, and I lie not, he was actually missing his two front teeth (his wife had different hair color than he did, so there’s that going for him).
HeelYeah — Great story about your dinner in Charlotte.
I would have been tempted to respond to the WVA fan with the old but hilarious line: “I hear that in West Virginia, they have a new use for sheep. Wool.”
I guess you weren’t in Sigma Nu Fraternity at Chapel Hill….
I was a dorm rat — Mangum. I would have made a lousy frat man, since I didn’t, and still don’t, drink.
Wow. I missed alot but I think everyone understands my take on the whole buisness.
But to those of you who blame Bobby: Cope was a senior too. Just saying, don’t say Bobby should have known better because he was a senior. He didn’t know what Cope was going to do. He said later that if he knew what was going to happen he would have just dribbled it out.
Also for those of you insulting Bobby’s play: he came back from tearing his ACL. Although his offense is not what it used to be his defense is better than ever and he gets plenty of playing time.
To sum up my position: The foul was wrong, not dirty but not clean either. Cope was wrong to react the way he did but not wrong to want to make a spectacular game ending play. He was not wrong to want to score two points in an ACC game. McCauley was wrong in making his “not in our house” comment. I do belive the foul was intentional. I do not belive he was going for the ball. I think the State fans were being classless and disrespectful for throwing things on the court. I belive Roy was right for sending Cope off. The refs were right to give the two players technicals. I do not belive Cope was trying to start a fight with McCauley. He was simply mad at getting whacked in the head and was not thinking at the time. I think Cope was sorry for what he did. It is not Bobby’s fault.
That’s it. Feel free to disagree.