There was a foul on that last play. Why wasn’t it called? What happend? What happend to the Heels we saw against State and Dook? Where are the Heels I know and love.
Oh and please no predictions of gloom and destruction. I dont want to hear it. We can still win it just not like this.
Props to Maryland, they played well.
Our guys need rest they should be okay if they can rest and get yelled at.
Please don’t blame Roy. He’s a great coach and even great coaches have bad games.
And to all of you who now say we aren’t going to win it all: SCREW YOU. One loss (IN OVERTIME) is not going to take away our championship.
Talk to y’all later, I’m going to go and cry some more.
Grand scheme of things, this game means nothing. UNC will still go into their home game with at least a 1 game lead in the ACC, probably more, and they are still in line for a #1 seed. The only thing that changes is how much they are going to vomit this week at practice…
Because some days the shots fall and some days they do not. There is a large random factor involved in every basketball game, maybe less than in some other sports, but particularly on the road, this is not unexpected. The difference between making a well-shot basket from three point range and missing the same shot is not strictly due to defense. Some of it is defense, some of it is skill and some of it, perhaps a lot of it is luck.
You guys are all harping about the defense, but UNC shot 38% from the floor. Ellington and Green couldn’t hit a shot when even one more make would have been enough. UNC goes 26% from three point land and Maryland goes 43.3%.
Rebounding kept us in but it wasn’t enough. We simply are not a powerful team down low and there is no good way for us to score when our outside shooters are off. When we had Brandan Wright, we were a lot better on the inside but Thompson, Zeller and Davis together do not make one Brandan Wright.
If UNC goes cold from outside from the Sweet 16 point (maybe the 2nd round), they will have a very difficult time beating most good teams.
william makes a great point. UNC held UM to 32% and 30 points in the first half, which is great, but they only had a 9 point lead. If they had just shot their season average, they would have had 4 more baskets (1 three) and an 18 point lead.
I don’t know why all of you think those jokes about the players running are so funny. Are you accusing them of not trying their best? If you aren’t, then why should they be punished by running?
Yes, they made errors down the stretch, but nothing that I saw is going to be remedied by having them run more. If you want to say they lost focus, perhaps their coach should stop making headlines by swearing in public and taking focus away from their play and putting it on himself.
How do you leave that guard wide open for 6 seconds in OT?? I will say this is a good loss in the aspect it will bring them down to earth with the tourney coming. Roy will be able to get much use out of this loss. I hate to lose but this close to the end of the season usually is a good time to lose.
The point is they didn’t hit they shots, and great teams find a way to win games like that when their shots aren’t falling. I’ll harp on the defense. The Heels haven’t put together forty minutes of good defense all season. Every game it seems a Vazquez or McClinton or (enter opponent’s best shooter) is going off, not because he’s doing anything outlandish, but because he has so many open looks. Teams this bad defensively don’t win championships.
Crazy bad officials… but we got what we earned. I am truly ashamed of that defense. No way, no how, we have a defensive set up that allows uncontested 3′s? I am very puzzled.
Roy refuses to play a zone. Roy refuses to let players slide off screens. He disagrees with Dean Smith on both of these things. There is a cost-benefit aspect to all coaching decisions. I saw several Maryland guys miss pretty open three point shots and I saw some where they were guarded swish.
It seems to me that Bobby Frasor’s guys get open again and again for three’s but maybe that is not his fault but due to the scheme.
None of our championships have been accompanied by particularly great defense during the tournament. Maybe the teams are better, but for whatever reason, Carolina has won in spite of G-town, Michigan and Illinois having pretty good offensive games against them.
Defense may be slightly more important in college than in the NBA, due to the one and out system in college, but when we see Carolina struggle on offense, as against BC, Wake and Maryland, versus when we struggle on defense, you can see the difference.
well Eric Montross for one disagrees with you…and maybe, just maybe when UNC “struggles” on offense, it’s because the other team is playing good defense?
Statistically we are a good defensive team, and THF, among others, is right that our losses are directly attributed to poor shooting percentage. But I’m not sure that’s the most appropriate way to define the loss. Good, tough defensive efforts will bail you out when your shooting goes south, and I really feel we’ve been living on the edge lately with our defense…like we don’t have a gear known as the lock-down mode. Days like this will happen in the NCAA tournament and I want us to be more ready for it.
Maryland shot 32% in the first half and shot 62% in the second half.
So maybe the Heels played incredible, amazing defense in one half and just terrible pathetic defense in the second half. Maybe Carolina did stop working hard in the second half and if so, then I guess they deserve a ton of criticism. On the other hand, maybe they played similarly both halves and Maryland just got some adrenaline going and the shots started falling. Maryland actually shot more three’s in the first half but were missing them then. Both types of shots were falling in the second half. We all know that Ty is short and that is not going to change. He is the top offensive player in the country and we are going to have to put up with taller guys scoring on us from the guard position. The same thing happened with Muggsy Bogues and it had nothing to do with effort or lack of defensive skill. Bogues tried harder than anyone but the other guards simply shot over him. Lawson is not as small as Bogues but he is still small, so complaining about the opposing guards every game is not going to work because I doubt it is going to change that much.
Maybe substitution schemes threw off Carolina in the second half. Bobby Frasor got 25 minutes, more than Ed Davis and Tyler Zeller put together. Zeller is now 1-7 from the floor since coming back. Frasor missed three more three pointers–how do you think that makes Duke feel!
I am not a Hall of Fame coach but in computer basketball as coach, Bobby Frasor gets about 7 minutes on my team. They usually have one of these bitter winter losses and now they have a week to let it soak in.
william, i thought i saw coach roy use some zone today which proved to be quite ineffective (maybe when danny got in foul trouble?) with maryland knocking down 3s. he said the heels have been working on it recently. but we can’t really depend on something that we just don’t have down pat.
like I said, I don’t think this team (like 05) is ever going to be a consistently good defensive team, but you HAVE to be able to get stops when you’re up 9 with what, 1:45 left? Adam referenced the difficulty they’ve had with flex teams, but I do believe Roy is asking a team that is not good at man defense to be good at it.
Some guys can shoot over a zone, too. I am not some big advocate of the zone but simply think that Dean Smith changed looks to keep other teams off their stride, sort of like a change-up in baseball. I think it is hard to argue against Dean’s position except in terms of the overall Carolina system, i.e., come to Carolina and run and play man and get ready for the NBA. In that sense, Roy’s position might be well thought out, although it might be less successful in a particular game.
Bobby Frasor had seven rebounds. I mean, maybe that is a freak positive, but generally, do you want your guard getting seven rebounds? Ed Davis had four and only 17 minutes. I am interested to hear Roy say why he didn’t let Ed play more.
william, zeller is the weakest one right now out there in terms of defense. how can we play him more when he’s just not quick enough to react yet when playing much smaller guys (i.e., maryland “bigs”).
frasor needs to play more minutes. i posted in the last zeller thread that wayne and ty have been playing quite a bit more than their teammates recently. i’m sure they were exhausted today due to accumulated playing time and they could surely use the next week to rest. frasor and drew are the only backups for those positions and i know how critical you are of drew, so who do you suppose plays for our two starting guards when they get tired?
I’m not going to tell everyone to relax, but every year the Heels have THAT game. It sucks that it is the same team, two years in a row, but this game had destiny written all over it. Look at the way it broke down the stretch, with Tyler and Danny both missing those free throws. It was painful, a lot like Georgetown ’07 in that you were watching the downward spiral and there was nothing you could do about it.
I predicted Vazquez would go off. Which opposing guard hasn’t? I am no genius in making that prediction…at all. There was a horrible call at the end of regulation when Tyler went up for a shot, got mauled over the back and was called for a charge. Keep in mind that our defense held them to 30 first half points, but yet they hit about 40 threes in the second half.
I’m no longer going with the aw shucks attitude about other teams hitting outlandish amounts of threes against us. I am flat out tired of. I’m beyond tired of it. It cost us titles in years past, and it will this year if things don’t change. Unfortunately, this late into the season, what we see is what we are going to see from here on out. We can’t realistically expect the defense to just start shutting down the opposing team’s three-point shooting out of nowhere. It is a problem and it is here to stay until the defense can recover in time to stop the threes.
I’m tired and pissed. I received some texts from friends in downtown Indy who were laughing at how pathetic the Maryland fans and players looked after the game. If this is their national title nowadays, then congrats. I’m sure Gary Williams will tell everyone how proud he is of his players, his school, the fans, etc. But you know deep down that he wishes he were coach of the other school that gets that kinda reaction when beat.
Well, I’m done crying but I’m not mad. Once in a while we aren’t going to get shots to go down. Once in a while we might not do great on defense. Once in a while WE WILL LOSE.
Look at the 2005 team. They lost more games than us and by alot more in some cases. We can still win it all.
Every game does have its’ individual dynamics that tell more about the game than the box score stats, and broad conclusions probably shouldn’t be drawn today, especially when we are in our negative mode. But the living-on-borrowed-time stats that I’m most concerned with is, including today, we have allowed 44.6% 2PFG and 44% 3PFG (coupled with some very high percentage individual halves) average in our last 5 games. We could have very well won today but I’m not too surprised we didn’t.
when you’re up 16 in the second half, on the road, in conference, against a smaller team, you must develop a killer instinct and put the game (and crowd) out of it. Failure to do that is due to a series of mental errors, lack of concentration, and not enough fire in your belly.
Shots not falling happens to all players–that’s nothing to be ashamed of. Defense and rebounding (rebounding was good today, defense was not) are EFFORT plays, and as Coach Williams has said multiple times, he shouldn’t have to coach effort. I agree.
Of course the officiating was garbage, but that shouldn’t have mattered. We stop ONE of those second half threes from going in and the officiating becomes moot.
Again:
5 total assists for the TEAM today.
6 players this year (all guards) have had career high games against our perimeter “defense” this year.
that’s cause for concern in the NCAA tourney, when smaller, inferior teams will live beyond the arc. It’s that simple: UNC’s title hopes are directly tied to the teams’ ability to guard the three point shot. That’s paramount.
Who was it on here who said that UNC has never defended the three well, even under Dean? Maybe that is just part and parcel of the Smith/Williams system.
But look at Frasor hitting all those three’s against Duke and going 0 for the rest of February. Isn’t Duke known for defending the three well?
The 2005 team only lost four games, three of them against top-notch opponents, and a couple of them were injury-related losses in my opinion, with none of them being blow-outs, except for maybe the Santa Clara game. The Wake game looks worse than it was because we kept fouling past the point of necessity and Wake kept making them. That team was undefeated at home which shows an important attribute for winning it all, which is winning when you are supposed to.
The main difference with that 2005 team was that Sean May could muscle his way to the basket inside and Tyler cannot. He just is not big enough. He can do other things, but he cannot do that, and when things got tough in 2005, we could always go inside to May. We can’t do that with this team.
did you see that the heels had 5 assists total for the game? 5! to go along with 15 turnovers and only 5 steals. maryland had 18 assists, 16 turnovers and 6 steals.
vasquez had 7 turnovers with his 10 assists but that combo was a ton better than ty’s 4 turnovers with his 2 assists. ty seemingly “made up” for his bad PG stat numbers by scoring 24 pts but he did it by making 8 of 20 shots. that just doesn’t cut it. and i JUST HAVE to blame the refs for these uncharacteristic numbers for ty. yeah, we should be able to win no matter what against a team like maryland but these refs CHANGED the game. they MADE our style of play ineffective. THAT is the biggest problem i personally have with today’s game.
So that sounds like we had bad offense, but some say bad defense, and some say it was the refs. I tell you, when a team is bad on offense and on defense and has the refs against them and they still almost win on the road against a pretty good squad, maybe that is not too bad.
It does make you mad that Maryland only shows up every other game after getting humiliated against Clemson. Now watch them lose to Duke by 25.
booty, i saw your post after i wrote mine. if ty feeds the ball inside and our bigs cant score because the refs swallow their whistle, or if ty gets tripped and lose the ball (which gets counted as a turnover) and no whistle is called, then the refs have effectively changed the game.
but having said all that, i guess i see your pt. we should’ve held the ball for the entire possession and milked the clock when we were up.
well said william. totally agree that it doesn’t seem so bad when you put it that way. maybe we should also blame ourselves (the fans). i’m sure we did something wrong too.
Maybe we were looking ahead to Georgia Tech at home next weekend? It is too bad because they had a decent chance to get back to number one. Unfortunately, the 2008 and 2009 Tar Heels seem to be very close to greatness, but just aren’t quite there, yet, anyway.
“So that sounds like we had bad offense, but some say bad defense, and some say it was the refs. I tell you, when a team is bad on offense and on defense and has the refs against them and they still almost win on the road against a pretty good squad, maybe that is not too bad.”
Seconded.
While I think the refs made two very bad calls down the stretch, overall, I didn’t think they were horrible. (The Hansbrough charge wasn’t, in itself, a bad call, but coming after the no-call on Lawson shows a clear inconsistency. Call them both, or call neither, but not 50/50.)
True, William, close to greatness, but not quite there. I don’t think any of us think we’ve played near what we are capable of, unless we have illusions about what we are capable of, which I don’t believe. Yet here we are at 24-3 with still a one game lead in the ACC. The discussion from now on will involve what it will take to get us to that point.
Here are some interesting posts since things are quiet here.
One talks about offense but strangely enough goes into a debate about whether Williams has even emphasized defense enough. I don’t buy it because it is so hard to win a national championship that most of what people say online is just hot air. You have to be really good and really lucky and then you might win a title. And if you are the best coach in the country, since the demise of the Wooden dynasty, you might win 3.
I also get a kick out of reading posts about Zeller. People were saying that he was going to post a double double and the like. The kid is shooting like 35% for the year. He looks great out there running the court, but now it is time to make some shots since he and Bobby Frasor both just lost a year of eligibility.
Another mentions Roy’s dispute with Dean Smith over switching on screens.
On a side note, I don’t ever want to hear Terps fans whine again about last year’s “ghetto” comment from the game in Chapel Hill after having more than one Twerps fan make comments about “going back to my woodshack” or imply that I’m racist simply because I attended a school in the south.
Maryland is in the South. The Mason-Dixon line is between Maryland and Pennsylvania. Maryland actually had legal slavery longer than North Carolina did. The state probably would have seceded but Lincoln arrested some of the secessionist legislators so that they missed the vote. Democracy can be an ugly thing at times.
IC talked to Bobby Frasor following Saturday’s loss to Maryland, and the senior guard confirmed speculation that his final appeal had been denied.
Q: Have you heard anything on your latest NCAA appeal?
A: “Yes, that’s finally come to a close. That’s over with, which is nice. I finally know that I’m moving on, going to graduate and everything, and go out with these guys.”
Q: When did you find out?
A: “Earlier this week. We had a teleconference with the NCAA – some committee – to find out. We presented our case [and] the NCAA presented their case, and then talked to these five people on teleconference and they made a judgment and they said that they denied the appeal. So I’m finally glad it’s over with and I can move on.”
Oh, believe me I know. I live in the state and I’ve pointed these things out to Maryland fan. One of the biggest problems is that 50% of Maryland fans now are from Long Island and Jersey, so they just assume that any “union” state is a bastion of freedom, while all “confederate” states are racists.
My point is simply that Maryland fans can no longer chirp about last year’s incident when they make plenty of incendiary comments of their own. They just happen not to be caught around ABC cameras.
Also, can we petition the ACC to ban Karl Hess from the sideline of UNC games and to ban UNC from playing in the 3:30 ABC timeslot?
I’m gonna throw this out there, and probably catch a lot of flack for it, but here goes:
I thought UNC played the final 35 seconds right. Normally, I would agree with the philosophy of fouling to extend the game, but here, I think what UNC did was smart. First, Maryland is a great FT shooting team, and they were having a great day from the line. Second, Maryland is a turnover prone team. I liked the idea of playing a scramble D for 20 seconds to try and force a TO. The worst that is going to happen is UM gets a layup, meaning you are down 3 with 15 – 20 seconds. If you can’t get a steal, you foul with 10-11 seconds left, which still gives you plenty of time to get a good shot down no worse than 3.
I am going to disagree because, coaches have finally figured out, after 25 years of the three pointer, that you should always foul the opponent when winning by exactly three points when there is ten seconds or less on the clock. Too bad that Xavier didn’t learn this against OSU but the one worthwhile thing about the Memphis debacle is that apparently all coaches know this now. Unfortunately, Dean wasn’t much better in that famous game against Duke when he let Capel hit the long three.
Here, Had UNC fouled earlier, they would have been able to try at least one and possibly two three’s without being fouled by Maryland. This way, they got to try zero. Fouling earlier at least puts things a little in our hands instead of having to pray for a miss.
Now if UNC had actually pressured on defense, maybe that changes things, but standing around and letting Maryland run down the clock to no good purpose and then fouling their best foul shooter seems inexplicable to me. They could have at least overplayed roughly down low on a poor free throw shooter and hoped for a call, as had happened earlier in the period.
Booty…I think you make a decent point about “killer instinct”. Up 16 on the road under 12 minutes to go…put the foot on their throat and close it out…even with their run, Heels up 6 with a shade over a minute to go, another chance to close it out…very frustrating to watch, definitely had chances to slam the door shut and finish it off…I am hopeful they can develop that closer mentality down the stretch…not many games left to do that though.
As most have pointed out, the officiating in the ACC this year has been pretty awful, but at this point of the season, I think you have to play through it to the best of your ability and find another way to win…
Or really even getting off a decent look during those possessions in overtime. In 2005, we would have slammed the ball in down low with Sean May and he would have muscled up a decent shot and we would have been well positioned for a board if he missed or didn’t get fouled.
Tyler simply is not the same caliber of inside player that Sean May was. It doesn’t mean he isn’t tougher. It doesn’t mean he isn’t better overall, but putting the ball into him down low when the rest of the offense is struggling seems to simply make things worse because three guys swarm on him and tie him up.
Maybe we need some cold-blooded athletic killers like the people on the Scout page always say that Roy won’t recruit, lol, but that apparently were Felton, Jawad Williams and Rashad McCants left over by the previous incumbent, who were the true guys who led us to the National Title. And let’s not forget, it is true that the players win the title, not the coaches. Back when UCLA had its big run, they got the top big man in the country over and over, not to mention a bunch of great smalls like Gail Goodrich, Lucius Allen, Keith Wilkes and Marques Johnson.
Fouling before the 3 was something I didn’t consider. That’s what I get for being brought up on Dean!
Now, for a little bit of good news:
UNC has had 15 Final Four teams since Dean took over. All but two (1977 and 1997) have lost at least one game in February. And all 3 NC teams did. So I guess all is not lost!
So does a killer instinct from being 6 up with 1 min. plus left come from aggressive offense or lock-down defense? Both? From what I’m seeing it doesn’t seem many feel we’re capable of that type of defense.
“Maybe we need some cold-blooded athletic killers like the people on the Scout page always say that Roy won’t recruit.”
IMO, Brandan Wright and Marvin Williams are the two most athletic players Williams has had at UNC, so there is a price to pay for getting those types of players…
Maybe it was almost considered unsporting to foul when ahead by three points in the old days when the three was so new. Remember, it was a completely different proposition from the pro’s where, until recently, a three pointer was a very difficult shot and it may have taken college coaches a long time to adjust. Remember Pitino in the mid-90s who seemed to understand the simple mathematics of 1/3 of three’s equals 1/2 of two’s before anyone else.
I worked this out for myself once mathematically, although I don’t claim peer review, but I do think the mathematics of what to do with a three point lead and 12 or fewer seconds left is almost unassailable. You foul. If the worst thing happens and they award three free throws, and in the unlikely event the opponent makes all three, you still aren’t any worse off than a simple three.
About the “cold-blooded killers,” I don’t know how to put it exactly, but I think they are getting at the notion that we need Carmelo or AI type guys.
9 points in 1:38. I don’t know if I want to watch it again but I assume this really is more like we had a 6 point lead with 1:38 to play and the ball. You still should win and I still think Roy uses his timeouts the way people used them back when the clock didn’t stop during the last two minutes of the game, but oh, well.
Everything about this game was wrong. Why can’t the Heels pound the ball down low against the smallest team in the ACC. Why does Tyler insist on taking the ball up when there are three guys on him. He seemed so much better last year. He doesn’t make the other team pay for being double or triple teamed with a good pass. Deon just disappears too much. I think Fraisor played so much because of Danny’s foul trouble and Roy went with a smaller line up. I thought Fraisor played pretty well but he tends to leave his man open to help out. I don’t know if the coaches are telling him to do that. The refs really hurt us. That phantom charge on Tyler and the last one on Green were so wrong. The Heels seemed to play down to MD’s level today. I felt they could of stepped it up a little and gotten out of there with an ugly win. But MD caught fire and it was GT 07 again. MD is not a good team. The heels did not look ready and I blame the players and coaches for the poor performance. I still think we will win it all but we need to be prepared and focused for each and every game. As someone stated this game does not hurt us but I feel like sh*t. Enjoyed reading the posts.
But please explain to me why he should get so much credit when they play well, then. Perhaps, we should just ignore Roy both when they win and when they lose and focus on the players.
Unfortunately, that is hard to do when there are so many questionable coaching decisions down the stretch. It is natural that people focus on them. All in all, this outing was not much different from the Miami road game. Ty got us an ugly win in that one but they lost big leads in both games and most people have already forgotten the Miami game, because, well, we won.
Frank, I agree with much of what you are saying about the inability to pass out of the triple and double teams down low. Hansbrough is not strong enough, nor is Deon, for that matter, to confront two or three guys in that manner. Sean was a hoss and he could. When we had Brandan, that took off pressure from Hansbrough. Now that other teams are copying how Kansas played us down low, Tyler needs help and if Ed isn’t going to play much anymore, I don’t know where it is coming from. I am curious to hear why Williams no longer plays Ed Davis much since his stats are so much better than some of the other guys getting those minutes.
“‘I hope we learn from this debacle and play defense like we can and must.’
So, suppose Roy salvaged the game with timeouts and fancy plays. Would we better off? No–we’re better off precisely how it played out, for precisely the reason you mention. Which I personally believe is exactly Roy’s intent. Let our play get what it earns, then it’s identified and we have motivation to fix it.
Personally I don’t think he was outcoached, you just had two coaches out here coaching for different results. And both coaches got precisely what they needed from the game.
The operative theory that Roy doesn’t know the obvious ‘moves’ every poster here knows doesn’t wash. He knows it all ten times over and makes a conscious decision to do other things. Seriously, think about it–nobody can honestly believe Roy doesn’t ‘know better’ at the level he’s being critiqued here.
Personally, there’s very little doubt in my mind that the disconnect doesn’t stem from Roy’s lack of knowledge of standard TV announcer ‘moves’ about how to win games on the basketball court, the difference is somewhere in a disconnect in the goals and objectives of Roy vs fans of the team.” – Ben Washburn
Well I will admit that Roy does deserve some blame, but on the IC boards people are saying that this is all on him. Like it’s his fault that the team gave no effort in the second half and made bad decisions. Maybe he didn’t call the right play or make the right desicion but this is not all on him. I personally am rooting for a OU loss. Are we still looking at overall #1 seed or what mid-west?
haha. william. my friend said the same thing. i still am sick of the blake love fest. they don’t deserve to be #1 and i’d rather see pitt there. plus if cmichael is correct, we’ll stay in the top 4 with their loss. i like staying there for the #1 seed.
It sounds like you guys are talking about something akin to throwing a game on Roy’s part. I guess if he thought his team needed to lose then there wasn’t much point in my even bothering to watch the game. Maybe he could at least tell me next time.
But seriously. Does anyone think he did a good job coaching and preparing for the game against Kansas last spring? And unless you do, then let’s recognize that he may make mistakes. Yes, he wins 80% of his games, but probably a lot of other coaches could have won 24 games with this squad so far, so that comeback doesn’t really answer things.
Roy is a great recruiter. He is a great teacher of offensive basketball. What is questioned by some is whether he is a great teacher of defensive basketball. He recruited these guys so he must have had some inkling about how good they might be on defense and how teachable they might be.
But I am getting bored with this every season when people post and attack our players for being bad on defense and refusing to play defense the way Roy showed them how to in practice. Do they lack the athleticism to play good defense? Obviously not. Well, are they stubborn and obdurate? If so, is Roy a poor judge of character and willingness to learn and adapt? Perhaps.
If your team is athletic and doesn’t play good defense, the buck stops with the coach.
Dean got much less criticism, I believe, because he did not call out his team or his players in public. If Roy is going to do that as a motivational technique, then he has to expect some blowback.
What would Smith have said after a game like today’s? “We are very disappointed to lose to a very fine Maryland team. I though Maryland played an excellent second half. I would have hoped that we could have stopped them a bit more but Maryland made the shots when they had to.”
He also would have never been stuck having to give major minutes to players that are unable to contribute much of anything on the offensive end, but that is a different story. Tony Zalagaris was head and shoulders above some of our players, as was Mike Peppers most likely.
“He also would have never been stuck having to give major minutes to players that are unable to contribute much of anything on the offensive end, but that is a different story.”
None of them are as smart as they seem when they win or as dumb as they seem when they lose but Dean never opened the door for criticism they way that Roy does.
Did Scott Cherry ever play 25 minutes in a game, much less a game this close? Somebody tell me, please, why he won’t play Ed Davis anymore. Please.
Personally, I don’t think the problem is so much that he can’t “teach them good defense” as he is hitched to a system (just as Dean was in his own way, frustratingly so at times) that his players are incapable of executing consistently. Our HS here was ranked as high as #4 in the State at one point this season. They have a sleek, fast, athletic team, and the Coach plays almost exclusively man defense. They have been slowly undone by good pg penetration, and exploiting their slightly smaller size underneath, despite having the perfect athletes to run the man pressure. Do I think he’s a good coach–absolutely! But I also think he is getting perhaps 70% out of this team because of the mental stress of not being able to maintain that defense full game//game-in/game-out. Hey, if you’re getting beat with 3′s already, what do you have to lose by experimenting?
“Did Scott Cherry ever play 25 minutes in a game, much less a game this close?”
Dean also coached in a time when scholarship seniors were your BEST players. This was also a time when there were far fewer legit options for the elite player. In short, there was a lot less competition.
Also, as for Dean never outwardly criticizing his players, I think we have to remember how much more coverage their is today. Who knows what Dean would have said publicly if he had as many chances as today’s coaches do.
I think the level of criticism has risen with the advent of the 24/7 media cycle. I tend to stay clear of criticisms other than stuff that is obvious and even then I simply ask questions or offer an opinion with the understanding that I really have no idea what I am talking about compared to a HOF coach.
Honestly, compared to today, 1997 seems like a LONG time ago. I was a freshman in college in 1997. 50% of kids didn’t have computers. No one had cell phones. The internet was minimal. No blogs. No message boards. Even ESPN.com was a shadow of its current self. And that was Dean’s last year.
For the love of God william, I know you despise Bobby Frasor. That point has been made many times. Who would you suggest that Roy pull out of his ****** to play then? Maybe he can give Ginyard an artificial leg and put him in? You say he should give Ed Davis more minutes. OK, so Ed Davis is a guard now?
We know Ginyard is hurt. We know that Graves is gone for the season. We know that Drew is not playing as well as we want. Who in the hell is Roy going to play then?????????
Sorry if I sound pissed, but I am. Losing this game really sucked, but bashing Bobby Frasor on every other post is getting real old. You got any eligibility left william?
Well, if you are only 28 years old, C.Michael, then you are a credit to our university. Your comments are consistently edifying and enlightening. Let me know if you want a recommendation for law school.
I am trying to remember when we got broadband. I guess it was 1998, and we have had a wireless network now for close to ten years. I remember when people were spending thousands of dollars to (re)wire their homes for broadband throughout and I was like, “well, we have an Apple wireless transmitter.” Of course, I had a family member in the tech industry, so that prodded things along.
Thad Williamson didn’t either. He went to Brown and still wrote a book about growing up a UNC fan. I almost considered Georgetown and Middlebury, but UNC is so fantastic and in-state. I wonder if I would have changed to a Hoya fan? It would have been at most, an equal affection, I believe.
Is that in-state? It looks like it is on their web page. I know it is excellent. I think my fraternity’s first chapter was at Union College, and then Rochester. My father used to work near there at G.E.
Are you still studying there in Rochester? That would be tough winters but great summers.
Union is just west of Albany. The local high school (Schenectady H.S.)is the reason I’m a Tar Heel fan. When my dad was at Union (’67), Schenectady H.S. had two alums playing high-major college ball that got all of the local press: Pat Riley and Dick Grubar. My dad loved baskeball and hated Adolph Rupp, but he thought this new coach at UNC, Dean Smith, was really likable. The rest, they say…
Still in Rochester. Only about 4 more months of winter for us!!
Dick Grubar from upstate NY. Most of our guys were from the City. I think Grubar got hurt in 1968 and that really hurt Carolina in the play-offs, but it might have been 1969. Rusty Clark was an M.D. from those teams.
In 1997, there was a site (I think it was Hoops.com or .net or something) which was a chat room for college hoops fans. I used the same moniker that I use today. I remember one person had these three 3″x5″ aviatars of Vince Carter, Ok, and Antawn. It took like three minutes for the site to load whenever this person would post because the aves were 3 x 5 inches!!! Anyways, I remember the Duke fans raving about the incoming class of Battier, Brand, and Burgess…the “killer bees” as they called them. I think Magette had even commited by then. Dunleavy Jr. was headed our way until Dean retired.
Dunleavy’s dad played for Frank McGuire. I remember on AOL that it used to take forever to draw those little pictures and would tie up your transmission for a while. That is a good memory from the old days.
Sometimes these posts seem to go up randomly, and I didn’t see this from before but I agree 52bgj.
What pitcher would ever just throw the fastball? I admire the principles but it does seem to me that Roy sort of is stuck on this man thing and this screening thing, because they are the only real ways his system is different from Dean’s. I think it would have been interesting if UNC had slowed down the game against Kansas last year in the first half, just like Dean posted an egg against Duke in the first half one year. We played ever so predictably against Kansas that they knew what we were going to do before they did it.
Well, that is great when you are Cassius Clay in the 60′s and way better than everybody, but what do you do when you are facing someone just as good or better? How about a little rope-a-dope?
don’t know if that’s verbatim, it would seem to be edited , as my preference was for a 2nd half zone (after the run), and Self destroyed them with the high screen (an ever so subtle adjustment), but it does capture the gist. good point in the edit however–I would like to see Roy pull a Deano “Loyola-Marymount special” sometime. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE7DD153FF933A15750C0A96E948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
random? just checking to see if someones paying attention.
William, I agree to a great extent with your posts. C. Michael, there is a point to be made with getting those “athletic” kids, and you’re right, it can be a gamble. I still think in 06-07 with Brandan Wright, and having Reyshawn was our best opportunity to win the whole damn thing. Yes, we played great last year, but really missed having big Brandon in that Kansas game. I guess one could make the argument that having Wright didn’t win it against Georgetown, so the Kansas game would have been the same with him, it’s just I like my chances better having another big guy like Brandon alongside Hansbrough. You really have to make the best of the opportunities you have when you get a Marvin or Brandon (in which we did with the former), but we failed to do that as we jacked up threes like it were easy as dunks against Georgetown. Maybe having Ed Davis is the same this year, so we need to find a way to make it happen before the wave crashes.
I simply do not understand what is happening with Ed Davis. From what I saw in the first half of the season, he has the talent and skills to be playing 30 minutes a game and posting a double double. While his offense has progressed more slowly than I expected, he must be terrible on defense in Roy’s opinion to be posting so few minutes as he did yesterday.
Also, we should remember that last year’s squad won three games in overtime(one in double overtime), one by one point, one by two points and lost one by 11 points, so by a power rankings point of view, we were less good than our almost pristine record in the Final Four.
The reverse happened in 2007. We lost almost every close game we were in during the regular season and blew people out in most of the other ones. The 2007 team probably lost to a better team in the Final 8 than the 2008 team beat, in Charlotte to go to the Final Four.
This year we should theoretically be better, but our four additions, Frasor, Davis, Drew and Zeller have contributed little.
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see you all in a week after I have cooled off
There was a foul on that last play. Why wasn’t it called? What happend? What happend to the Heels we saw against State and Dook? Where are the Heels I know and love.
Oh and please no predictions of gloom and destruction. I dont want to hear it. We can still win it just not like this.
Props to Maryland, they played well.
Our guys need rest they should be okay if they can rest and get yelled at.
Please don’t blame Roy. He’s a great coach and even great coaches have bad games.
And to all of you who now say we aren’t going to win it all: SCREW YOU. One loss (IN OVERTIME) is not going to take away our championship.
Talk to y’all later, I’m going to go and cry some more.
Don’t cry. Be ticked off. The defensive effort out there today didn’t exist.
Was never a fan, but a certain tune by Limp Bizkit has popped into my head. No idea if these words are even close:
Give me something to break, I need something to break
Grand scheme of things, this game means nothing. UNC will still go into their home game with at least a 1 game lead in the ACC, probably more, and they are still in line for a #1 seed. The only thing that changes is how much they are going to vomit this week at practice…
Because some days the shots fall and some days they do not. There is a large random factor involved in every basketball game, maybe less than in some other sports, but particularly on the road, this is not unexpected. The difference between making a well-shot basket from three point range and missing the same shot is not strictly due to defense. Some of it is defense, some of it is skill and some of it, perhaps a lot of it is luck.
You guys are all harping about the defense, but UNC shot 38% from the floor. Ellington and Green couldn’t hit a shot when even one more make would have been enough. UNC goes 26% from three point land and Maryland goes 43.3%.
Rebounding kept us in but it wasn’t enough. We simply are not a powerful team down low and there is no good way for us to score when our outside shooters are off. When we had Brandan Wright, we were a lot better on the inside but Thompson, Zeller and Davis together do not make one Brandan Wright.
If UNC goes cold from outside from the Sweet 16 point (maybe the 2nd round), they will have a very difficult time beating most good teams.
They’re going to be /great/ friends with those stairs after this week.
william makes a great point. UNC held UM to 32% and 30 points in the first half, which is great, but they only had a 9 point lead. If they had just shot their season average, they would have had 4 more baskets (1 three) and an 18 point lead.
I don’t know why all of you think those jokes about the players running are so funny. Are you accusing them of not trying their best? If you aren’t, then why should they be punished by running?
Yes, they made errors down the stretch, but nothing that I saw is going to be remedied by having them run more. If you want to say they lost focus, perhaps their coach should stop making headlines by swearing in public and taking focus away from their play and putting it on himself.
“If you aren’t, then why should they be punished by running?”
Because that is what coaches do to make a point. Trust me, I went through it far too many times.
How do you leave that guard wide open for 6 seconds in OT?? I will say this is a good loss in the aspect it will bring them down to earth with the tourney coming. Roy will be able to get much use out of this loss. I hate to lose but this close to the end of the season usually is a good time to lose.
The point is they didn’t hit they shots, and great teams find a way to win games like that when their shots aren’t falling. I’ll harp on the defense. The Heels haven’t put together forty minutes of good defense all season. Every game it seems a Vazquez or McClinton or (enter opponent’s best shooter) is going off, not because he’s doing anything outlandish, but because he has so many open looks. Teams this bad defensively don’t win championships.
Man, I hope I’m wrong.
I have said many times, the three losses this season can be blamed more on the lack of offense rather than the lack of defense.
Crazy bad officials… but we got what we earned. I am truly ashamed of that defense. No way, no how, we have a defensive set up that allows uncontested 3′s? I am very puzzled.
Roy refuses to play a zone. Roy refuses to let players slide off screens. He disagrees with Dean Smith on both of these things. There is a cost-benefit aspect to all coaching decisions. I saw several Maryland guys miss pretty open three point shots and I saw some where they were guarded swish.
It seems to me that Bobby Frasor’s guys get open again and again for three’s but maybe that is not his fault but due to the scheme.
None of our championships have been accompanied by particularly great defense during the tournament. Maybe the teams are better, but for whatever reason, Carolina has won in spite of G-town, Michigan and Illinois having pretty good offensive games against them.
Defense may be slightly more important in college than in the NBA, due to the one and out system in college, but when we see Carolina struggle on offense, as against BC, Wake and Maryland, versus when we struggle on defense, you can see the difference.
well Eric Montross for one disagrees with you…and maybe, just maybe when UNC “struggles” on offense, it’s because the other team is playing good defense?
5 different opposing guards have now gone +30 against UNC
Statistically we are a good defensive team, and THF, among others, is right that our losses are directly attributed to poor shooting percentage. But I’m not sure that’s the most appropriate way to define the loss. Good, tough defensive efforts will bail you out when your shooting goes south, and I really feel we’ve been living on the edge lately with our defense…like we don’t have a gear known as the lock-down mode. Days like this will happen in the NCAA tournament and I want us to be more ready for it.
Exactly LarryS
that gear was called “marcus ginyard,” LarryS
Maryland shot 32% in the first half and shot 62% in the second half.
So maybe the Heels played incredible, amazing defense in one half and just terrible pathetic defense in the second half. Maybe Carolina did stop working hard in the second half and if so, then I guess they deserve a ton of criticism. On the other hand, maybe they played similarly both halves and Maryland just got some adrenaline going and the shots started falling. Maryland actually shot more three’s in the first half but were missing them then. Both types of shots were falling in the second half. We all know that Ty is short and that is not going to change. He is the top offensive player in the country and we are going to have to put up with taller guys scoring on us from the guard position. The same thing happened with Muggsy Bogues and it had nothing to do with effort or lack of defensive skill. Bogues tried harder than anyone but the other guards simply shot over him. Lawson is not as small as Bogues but he is still small, so complaining about the opposing guards every game is not going to work because I doubt it is going to change that much.
Maybe substitution schemes threw off Carolina in the second half. Bobby Frasor got 25 minutes, more than Ed Davis and Tyler Zeller put together. Zeller is now 1-7 from the floor since coming back. Frasor missed three more three pointers–how do you think that makes Duke feel!
I am not a Hall of Fame coach but in computer basketball as coach, Bobby Frasor gets about 7 minutes on my team. They usually have one of these bitter winter losses and now they have a week to let it soak in.
william, i thought i saw coach roy use some zone today which proved to be quite ineffective (maybe when danny got in foul trouble?) with maryland knocking down 3s. he said the heels have been working on it recently. but we can’t really depend on something that we just don’t have down pat.
like I said, I don’t think this team (like 05) is ever going to be a consistently good defensive team, but you HAVE to be able to get stops when you’re up 9 with what, 1:45 left? Adam referenced the difficulty they’ve had with flex teams, but I do believe Roy is asking a team that is not good at man defense to be good at it.
Some guys can shoot over a zone, too. I am not some big advocate of the zone but simply think that Dean Smith changed looks to keep other teams off their stride, sort of like a change-up in baseball. I think it is hard to argue against Dean’s position except in terms of the overall Carolina system, i.e., come to Carolina and run and play man and get ready for the NBA. In that sense, Roy’s position might be well thought out, although it might be less successful in a particular game.
Bobby Frasor had seven rebounds. I mean, maybe that is a freak positive, but generally, do you want your guard getting seven rebounds? Ed Davis had four and only 17 minutes. I am interested to hear Roy say why he didn’t let Ed play more.
william, zeller is the weakest one right now out there in terms of defense. how can we play him more when he’s just not quick enough to react yet when playing much smaller guys (i.e., maryland “bigs”).
frasor needs to play more minutes. i posted in the last zeller thread that wayne and ty have been playing quite a bit more than their teammates recently. i’m sure they were exhausted today due to accumulated playing time and they could surely use the next week to rest. frasor and drew are the only backups for those positions and i know how critical you are of drew, so who do you suppose plays for our two starting guards when they get tired?
I’m not going to tell everyone to relax, but every year the Heels have THAT game. It sucks that it is the same team, two years in a row, but this game had destiny written all over it. Look at the way it broke down the stretch, with Tyler and Danny both missing those free throws. It was painful, a lot like Georgetown ’07 in that you were watching the downward spiral and there was nothing you could do about it.
I predicted Vazquez would go off. Which opposing guard hasn’t? I am no genius in making that prediction…at all. There was a horrible call at the end of regulation when Tyler went up for a shot, got mauled over the back and was called for a charge. Keep in mind that our defense held them to 30 first half points, but yet they hit about 40 threes in the second half.
I’m no longer going with the aw shucks attitude about other teams hitting outlandish amounts of threes against us. I am flat out tired of. I’m beyond tired of it. It cost us titles in years past, and it will this year if things don’t change. Unfortunately, this late into the season, what we see is what we are going to see from here on out. We can’t realistically expect the defense to just start shutting down the opposing team’s three-point shooting out of nowhere. It is a problem and it is here to stay until the defense can recover in time to stop the threes.
I’m tired and pissed. I received some texts from friends in downtown Indy who were laughing at how pathetic the Maryland fans and players looked after the game. If this is their national title nowadays, then congrats. I’m sure Gary Williams will tell everyone how proud he is of his players, his school, the fans, etc. But you know deep down that he wishes he were coach of the other school that gets that kinda reaction when beat.
Still, I’m freakin’, flippin’, and/or friggin’ PISSED.
certain zones can be good against the 3. some zones are complete s***.
Well, I’m done crying but I’m not mad. Once in a while we aren’t going to get shots to go down. Once in a while we might not do great on defense. Once in a while WE WILL LOSE.
Look at the 2005 team. They lost more games than us and by alot more in some cases. We can still win it all.
If we work on our defense we will be okay.
Every game does have its’ individual dynamics that tell more about the game than the box score stats, and broad conclusions probably shouldn’t be drawn today, especially when we are in our negative mode. But the living-on-borrowed-time stats that I’m most concerned with is, including today, we have allowed 44.6% 2PFG and 44% 3PFG (coupled with some very high percentage individual halves) average in our last 5 games. We could have very well won today but I’m not too surprised we didn’t.
it’s psychological:
when you’re up 16 in the second half, on the road, in conference, against a smaller team, you must develop a killer instinct and put the game (and crowd) out of it. Failure to do that is due to a series of mental errors, lack of concentration, and not enough fire in your belly.
Shots not falling happens to all players–that’s nothing to be ashamed of. Defense and rebounding (rebounding was good today, defense was not) are EFFORT plays, and as Coach Williams has said multiple times, he shouldn’t have to coach effort. I agree.
Of course the officiating was garbage, but that shouldn’t have mattered. We stop ONE of those second half threes from going in and the officiating becomes moot.
Again:
5 total assists for the TEAM today.
6 players this year (all guards) have had career high games against our perimeter “defense” this year.
that’s cause for concern in the NCAA tourney, when smaller, inferior teams will live beyond the arc. It’s that simple: UNC’s title hopes are directly tied to the teams’ ability to guard the three point shot. That’s paramount.
Who was it on here who said that UNC has never defended the three well, even under Dean? Maybe that is just part and parcel of the Smith/Williams system.
But look at Frasor hitting all those three’s against Duke and going 0 for the rest of February. Isn’t Duke known for defending the three well?
The 2005 team only lost four games, three of them against top-notch opponents, and a couple of them were injury-related losses in my opinion, with none of them being blow-outs, except for maybe the Santa Clara game. The Wake game looks worse than it was because we kept fouling past the point of necessity and Wake kept making them. That team was undefeated at home which shows an important attribute for winning it all, which is winning when you are supposed to.
The main difference with that 2005 team was that Sean May could muscle his way to the basket inside and Tyler cannot. He just is not big enough. He can do other things, but he cannot do that, and when things got tough in 2005, we could always go inside to May. We can’t do that with this team.
did you see that the heels had 5 assists total for the game? 5! to go along with 15 turnovers and only 5 steals. maryland had 18 assists, 16 turnovers and 6 steals.
vasquez had 7 turnovers with his 10 assists but that combo was a ton better than ty’s 4 turnovers with his 2 assists. ty seemingly “made up” for his bad PG stat numbers by scoring 24 pts but he did it by making 8 of 20 shots. that just doesn’t cut it. and i JUST HAVE to blame the refs for these uncharacteristic numbers for ty. yeah, we should be able to win no matter what against a team like maryland but these refs CHANGED the game. they MADE our style of play ineffective. THAT is the biggest problem i personally have with today’s game.
So that sounds like we had bad offense, but some say bad defense, and some say it was the refs. I tell you, when a team is bad on offense and on defense and has the refs against them and they still almost win on the road against a pretty good squad, maybe that is not too bad.
It does make you mad that Maryland only shows up every other game after getting humiliated against Clemson. Now watch them lose to Duke by 25.
booty, i saw your post after i wrote mine. if ty feeds the ball inside and our bigs cant score because the refs swallow their whistle, or if ty gets tripped and lose the ball (which gets counted as a turnover) and no whistle is called, then the refs have effectively changed the game.
but having said all that, i guess i see your pt. we should’ve held the ball for the entire possession and milked the clock when we were up.
well said william. totally agree that it doesn’t seem so bad when you put it that way. maybe we should also blame ourselves (the fans). i’m sure we did something wrong too.
=)
I know I did something wrong. I forgot to wear my UNC sweat pants that I always wear during games. I will take the blame.
Maybe we were looking ahead to Georgia Tech at home next weekend? It is too bad because they had a decent chance to get back to number one. Unfortunately, the 2008 and 2009 Tar Heels seem to be very close to greatness, but just aren’t quite there, yet, anyway.
Argh…just plain argh…GUARD THE FRIGGIN’ THREE! FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS DECENT ON GOD’S GREEN EARTH…GUARD THE FRIGGIN’ THREE!!!
“So that sounds like we had bad offense, but some say bad defense, and some say it was the refs. I tell you, when a team is bad on offense and on defense and has the refs against them and they still almost win on the road against a pretty good squad, maybe that is not too bad.”
Seconded.
While I think the refs made two very bad calls down the stretch, overall, I didn’t think they were horrible. (The Hansbrough charge wasn’t, in itself, a bad call, but coming after the no-call on Lawson shows a clear inconsistency. Call them both, or call neither, but not 50/50.)
True, William, close to greatness, but not quite there. I don’t think any of us think we’ve played near what we are capable of, unless we have illusions about what we are capable of, which I don’t believe. Yet here we are at 24-3 with still a one game lead in the ACC. The discussion from now on will involve what it will take to get us to that point.
Here are some interesting posts since things are quiet here.
One talks about offense but strangely enough goes into a debate about whether Williams has even emphasized defense enough. I don’t buy it because it is so hard to win a national championship that most of what people say online is just hot air. You have to be really good and really lucky and then you might win a title. And if you are the best coach in the country, since the demise of the Wooden dynasty, you might win 3.
I also get a kick out of reading posts about Zeller. People were saying that he was going to post a double double and the like. The kid is shooting like 35% for the year. He looks great out there running the court, but now it is time to make some shots since he and Bobby Frasor both just lost a year of eligibility.
Another mentions Roy’s dispute with Dean Smith over switching on screens.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=3973124
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=3970602
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=3972820
Will be curious to see what the polls are if OU loses tonight.
My prediction if OU wins:
1. OU
2. Pitt
3. Memphis
4. UConn
5. UNC
My prediction if OU loses:
1. Pitt
2. Memphis
3. UConn
4. UNC
5. L’ville
On a side note, I don’t ever want to hear Terps fans whine again about last year’s “ghetto” comment from the game in Chapel Hill after having more than one Twerps fan make comments about “going back to my woodshack” or imply that I’m racist simply because I attended a school in the south.
Maryland is in the South. The Mason-Dixon line is between Maryland and Pennsylvania. Maryland actually had legal slavery longer than North Carolina did. The state probably would have seceded but Lincoln arrested some of the secessionist legislators so that they missed the vote. Democracy can be an ugly thing at times.
FYI (from Greg Barnes):
IC talked to Bobby Frasor following Saturday’s loss to Maryland, and the senior guard confirmed speculation that his final appeal had been denied.
Q: Have you heard anything on your latest NCAA appeal?
A: “Yes, that’s finally come to a close. That’s over with, which is nice. I finally know that I’m moving on, going to graduate and everything, and go out with these guys.”
Q: When did you find out?
A: “Earlier this week. We had a teleconference with the NCAA – some committee – to find out. We presented our case [and] the NCAA presented their case, and then talked to these five people on teleconference and they made a judgment and they said that they denied the appeal. So I’m finally glad it’s over with and I can move on.”
Oh, believe me I know. I live in the state and I’ve pointed these things out to Maryland fan. One of the biggest problems is that 50% of Maryland fans now are from Long Island and Jersey, so they just assume that any “union” state is a bastion of freedom, while all “confederate” states are racists.
My point is simply that Maryland fans can no longer chirp about last year’s incident when they make plenty of incendiary comments of their own. They just happen not to be caught around ABC cameras.
Also, can we petition the ACC to ban Karl Hess from the sideline of UNC games and to ban UNC from playing in the 3:30 ABC timeslot?
I’m gonna throw this out there, and probably catch a lot of flack for it, but here goes:
I thought UNC played the final 35 seconds right. Normally, I would agree with the philosophy of fouling to extend the game, but here, I think what UNC did was smart. First, Maryland is a great FT shooting team, and they were having a great day from the line. Second, Maryland is a turnover prone team. I liked the idea of playing a scramble D for 20 seconds to try and force a TO. The worst that is going to happen is UM gets a layup, meaning you are down 3 with 15 – 20 seconds. If you can’t get a steal, you foul with 10-11 seconds left, which still gives you plenty of time to get a good shot down no worse than 3.
I won’t give you any flack. Having a 9 point lead, I liken it to my wife laughing at fans who blame the field goal kicker for “losing the game”.
I am going to disagree because, coaches have finally figured out, after 25 years of the three pointer, that you should always foul the opponent when winning by exactly three points when there is ten seconds or less on the clock. Too bad that Xavier didn’t learn this against OSU but the one worthwhile thing about the Memphis debacle is that apparently all coaches know this now. Unfortunately, Dean wasn’t much better in that famous game against Duke when he let Capel hit the long three.
Here, Had UNC fouled earlier, they would have been able to try at least one and possibly two three’s without being fouled by Maryland. This way, they got to try zero. Fouling earlier at least puts things a little in our hands instead of having to pray for a miss.
Now if UNC had actually pressured on defense, maybe that changes things, but standing around and letting Maryland run down the clock to no good purpose and then fouling their best foul shooter seems inexplicable to me. They could have at least overplayed roughly down low on a poor free throw shooter and hoped for a call, as had happened earlier in the period.
Booty…I think you make a decent point about “killer instinct”. Up 16 on the road under 12 minutes to go…put the foot on their throat and close it out…even with their run, Heels up 6 with a shade over a minute to go, another chance to close it out…very frustrating to watch, definitely had chances to slam the door shut and finish it off…I am hopeful they can develop that closer mentality down the stretch…not many games left to do that though.
As most have pointed out, the officiating in the ACC this year has been pretty awful, but at this point of the season, I think you have to play through it to the best of your ability and find another way to win…
GO HEELS!
UNC also came down twice in OT with the score tied and did not make a shot that would have put pressure on MD to respond.
Or really even getting off a decent look during those possessions in overtime. In 2005, we would have slammed the ball in down low with Sean May and he would have muscled up a decent shot and we would have been well positioned for a board if he missed or didn’t get fouled.
Tyler simply is not the same caliber of inside player that Sean May was. It doesn’t mean he isn’t tougher. It doesn’t mean he isn’t better overall, but putting the ball into him down low when the rest of the offense is struggling seems to simply make things worse because three guys swarm on him and tie him up.
Maybe we need some cold-blooded athletic killers like the people on the Scout page always say that Roy won’t recruit, lol, but that apparently were Felton, Jawad Williams and Rashad McCants left over by the previous incumbent, who were the true guys who led us to the National Title. And let’s not forget, it is true that the players win the title, not the coaches. Back when UCLA had its big run, they got the top big man in the country over and over, not to mention a bunch of great smalls like Gail Goodrich, Lucius Allen, Keith Wilkes and Marques Johnson.
Fouling before the 3 was something I didn’t consider. That’s what I get for being brought up on Dean!
Now, for a little bit of good news:
UNC has had 15 Final Four teams since Dean took over. All but two (1977 and 1997) have lost at least one game in February. And all 3 NC teams did. So I guess all is not lost!
So does a killer instinct from being 6 up with 1 min. plus left come from aggressive offense or lock-down defense? Both? From what I’m seeing it doesn’t seem many feel we’re capable of that type of defense.
“Maybe we need some cold-blooded athletic killers like the people on the Scout page always say that Roy won’t recruit.”
IMO, Brandan Wright and Marvin Williams are the two most athletic players Williams has had at UNC, so there is a price to pay for getting those types of players…
Maybe it was almost considered unsporting to foul when ahead by three points in the old days when the three was so new. Remember, it was a completely different proposition from the pro’s where, until recently, a three pointer was a very difficult shot and it may have taken college coaches a long time to adjust. Remember Pitino in the mid-90s who seemed to understand the simple mathematics of 1/3 of three’s equals 1/2 of two’s before anyone else.
I worked this out for myself once mathematically, although I don’t claim peer review, but I do think the mathematics of what to do with a three point lead and 12 or fewer seconds left is almost unassailable. You foul. If the worst thing happens and they award three free throws, and in the unlikely event the opponent makes all three, you still aren’t any worse off than a simple three.
About the “cold-blooded killers,” I don’t know how to put it exactly, but I think they are getting at the notion that we need Carmelo or AI type guys.
9 points in 1:38. I don’t know if I want to watch it again but I assume this really is more like we had a 6 point lead with 1:38 to play and the ball. You still should win and I still think Roy uses his timeouts the way people used them back when the clock didn’t stop during the last two minutes of the game, but oh, well.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=3972976
Please people. Don’t blame Roy. ITS NOT ALL HIS FAULT.
I agree with Ben Washburn
Everything about this game was wrong. Why can’t the Heels pound the ball down low against the smallest team in the ACC. Why does Tyler insist on taking the ball up when there are three guys on him. He seemed so much better last year. He doesn’t make the other team pay for being double or triple teamed with a good pass. Deon just disappears too much. I think Fraisor played so much because of Danny’s foul trouble and Roy went with a smaller line up. I thought Fraisor played pretty well but he tends to leave his man open to help out. I don’t know if the coaches are telling him to do that. The refs really hurt us. That phantom charge on Tyler and the last one on Green were so wrong. The Heels seemed to play down to MD’s level today. I felt they could of stepped it up a little and gotten out of there with an ugly win. But MD caught fire and it was GT 07 again. MD is not a good team. The heels did not look ready and I blame the players and coaches for the poor performance. I still think we will win it all but we need to be prepared and focused for each and every game. As someone stated this game does not hurt us but I feel like sh*t. Enjoyed reading the posts.
Nobody said it was all Roy’s fault.
But please explain to me why he should get so much credit when they play well, then. Perhaps, we should just ignore Roy both when they win and when they lose and focus on the players.
Unfortunately, that is hard to do when there are so many questionable coaching decisions down the stretch. It is natural that people focus on them. All in all, this outing was not much different from the Miami road game. Ty got us an ugly win in that one but they lost big leads in both games and most people have already forgotten the Miami game, because, well, we won.
Frank, I agree with much of what you are saying about the inability to pass out of the triple and double teams down low. Hansbrough is not strong enough, nor is Deon, for that matter, to confront two or three guys in that manner. Sean was a hoss and he could. When we had Brandan, that took off pressure from Hansbrough. Now that other teams are copying how Kansas played us down low, Tyler needs help and if Ed isn’t going to play much anymore, I don’t know where it is coming from. I am curious to hear why Williams no longer plays Ed Davis much since his stats are so much better than some of the other guys getting those minutes.
52,
I agree. Ben Washburn captured my line of thought too.
BLAKE GRIFFEN HAS 2 FOULS WITH 13 MINS TO GO IN THE 1ST HALF.
Whoever that is, or whatever he may have said, it must have been good.
Do you care anymore, heeledsoul? I was all up to watch that game after we won. I may watch George Mason instead now.
“‘I hope we learn from this debacle and play defense like we can and must.’
So, suppose Roy salvaged the game with timeouts and fancy plays. Would we better off? No–we’re better off precisely how it played out, for precisely the reason you mention. Which I personally believe is exactly Roy’s intent. Let our play get what it earns, then it’s identified and we have motivation to fix it.
Personally I don’t think he was outcoached, you just had two coaches out here coaching for different results. And both coaches got precisely what they needed from the game.
The operative theory that Roy doesn’t know the obvious ‘moves’ every poster here knows doesn’t wash. He knows it all ten times over and makes a conscious decision to do other things. Seriously, think about it–nobody can honestly believe Roy doesn’t ‘know better’ at the level he’s being critiqued here.
Personally, there’s very little doubt in my mind that the disconnect doesn’t stem from Roy’s lack of knowledge of standard TV announcer ‘moves’ about how to win games on the basketball court, the difference is somewhere in a disconnect in the goals and objectives of Roy vs fans of the team.” – Ben Washburn
Well I will admit that Roy does deserve some blame, but on the IC boards people are saying that this is all on him. Like it’s his fault that the team gave no effort in the second half and made bad decisions. Maybe he didn’t call the right play or make the right desicion but this is not all on him. I personally am rooting for a OU loss. Are we still looking at overall #1 seed or what mid-west?
haha. william. my friend said the same thing. i still am sick of the blake love fest. they don’t deserve to be #1 and i’d rather see pitt there. plus if cmichael is correct, we’ll stay in the top 4 with their loss. i like staying there for the #1 seed.
It sounds like you guys are talking about something akin to throwing a game on Roy’s part. I guess if he thought his team needed to lose then there wasn’t much point in my even bothering to watch the game. Maybe he could at least tell me next time.
But seriously. Does anyone think he did a good job coaching and preparing for the game against Kansas last spring? And unless you do, then let’s recognize that he may make mistakes. Yes, he wins 80% of his games, but probably a lot of other coaches could have won 24 games with this squad so far, so that comeback doesn’t really answer things.
Roy is a great recruiter. He is a great teacher of offensive basketball. What is questioned by some is whether he is a great teacher of defensive basketball. He recruited these guys so he must have had some inkling about how good they might be on defense and how teachable they might be.
But I am getting bored with this every season when people post and attack our players for being bad on defense and refusing to play defense the way Roy showed them how to in practice. Do they lack the athleticism to play good defense? Obviously not. Well, are they stubborn and obdurate? If so, is Roy a poor judge of character and willingness to learn and adapt? Perhaps.
If your team is athletic and doesn’t play good defense, the buck stops with the coach.
Where a team is ranked, and where they are seeded aren’t really related. Memphis, for instance, will be in the Top 2 or 3, but they aren’t a #1 seed.
Dean got much less criticism, I believe, because he did not call out his team or his players in public. If Roy is going to do that as a motivational technique, then he has to expect some blowback.
What would Smith have said after a game like today’s? “We are very disappointed to lose to a very fine Maryland team. I though Maryland played an excellent second half. I would have hoped that we could have stopped them a bit more but Maryland made the shots when they had to.”
He also would have never been stuck having to give major minutes to players that are unable to contribute much of anything on the offensive end, but that is a different story. Tony Zalagaris was head and shoulders above some of our players, as was Mike Peppers most likely.
“He also would have never been stuck having to give major minutes to players that are unable to contribute much of anything on the offensive end, but that is a different story.”
And it is also selective memory, I would guess…
None of them are as smart as they seem when they win or as dumb as they seem when they lose but Dean never opened the door for criticism they way that Roy does.
Did Scott Cherry ever play 25 minutes in a game, much less a game this close? Somebody tell me, please, why he won’t play Ed Davis anymore. Please.
Personally, I don’t think the problem is so much that he can’t “teach them good defense” as he is hitched to a system (just as Dean was in his own way, frustratingly so at times) that his players are incapable of executing consistently. Our HS here was ranked as high as #4 in the State at one point this season. They have a sleek, fast, athletic team, and the Coach plays almost exclusively man defense. They have been slowly undone by good pg penetration, and exploiting their slightly smaller size underneath, despite having the perfect athletes to run the man pressure. Do I think he’s a good coach–absolutely! But I also think he is getting perhaps 70% out of this team because of the mental stress of not being able to maintain that defense full game//game-in/game-out. Hey, if you’re getting beat with 3′s already, what do you have to lose by experimenting?
Off topic…Blake Griffin is out of the game against Texas having suffered a concussion.
“Did Scott Cherry ever play 25 minutes in a game, much less a game this close?”
Dean also coached in a time when scholarship seniors were your BEST players. This was also a time when there were far fewer legit options for the elite player. In short, there was a lot less competition.
Also, as for Dean never outwardly criticizing his players, I think we have to remember how much more coverage their is today. Who knows what Dean would have said publicly if he had as many chances as today’s coaches do.
“Blake Griffin is out of the game against Texas having suffered a concussion.”
Hate to see that. He looks bad. Wouldn’t be surprised if he missed a couple of games.
I think the level of criticism has risen with the advent of the 24/7 media cycle. I tend to stay clear of criticisms other than stuff that is obvious and even then I simply ask questions or offer an opinion with the understanding that I really have no idea what I am talking about compared to a HOF coach.
C.Michael, you make 1997 sound like the roaring twenties or something, lol. They did have the internet and cable, even.
Honestly, compared to today, 1997 seems like a LONG time ago. I was a freshman in college in 1997. 50% of kids didn’t have computers. No one had cell phones. The internet was minimal. No blogs. No message boards. Even ESPN.com was a shadow of its current self. And that was Dean’s last year.
Everyone was still on dial-ups.
“Everyone was still on dial-ups.”
I just threw-up in my mouth a little…
For the love of God william, I know you despise Bobby Frasor. That point has been made many times. Who would you suggest that Roy pull out of his ****** to play then? Maybe he can give Ginyard an artificial leg and put him in? You say he should give Ed Davis more minutes. OK, so Ed Davis is a guard now?
We know Ginyard is hurt. We know that Graves is gone for the season. We know that Drew is not playing as well as we want. Who in the hell is Roy going to play then?????????
Sorry if I sound pissed, but I am. Losing this game really sucked, but bashing Bobby Frasor on every other post is getting real old. You got any eligibility left william?
Well, if you are only 28 years old, C.Michael, then you are a credit to our university. Your comments are consistently edifying and enlightening. Let me know if you want a recommendation for law school.
I am trying to remember when we got broadband. I guess it was 1998, and we have had a wireless network now for close to ten years. I remember when people were spending thousands of dollars to (re)wire their homes for broadband throughout and I was like, “well, we have an Apple wireless transmitter.” Of course, I had a family member in the tech industry, so that prodded things along.
Thanks, william! Actually, I’m about to turn 30, but I will take the complement anyway!
Unfortunately, UNC can only claim me as a fan. Both undergrad and grad were done in Upstate NY.
You and THF. Where did you go, a SUNY?
Thad Williamson didn’t either. He went to Brown and still wrote a book about growing up a UNC fan. I almost considered Georgetown and Middlebury, but UNC is so fantastic and in-state. I wonder if I would have changed to a Hoya fan? It would have been at most, an equal affection, I believe.
Union College for undergrad and then University of Rochester School of Medicine for grad school.
Is that in-state? It looks like it is on their web page. I know it is excellent. I think my fraternity’s first chapter was at Union College, and then Rochester. My father used to work near there at G.E.
Are you still studying there in Rochester? That would be tough winters but great summers.
Union is just west of Albany. The local high school (Schenectady H.S.)is the reason I’m a Tar Heel fan. When my dad was at Union (’67), Schenectady H.S. had two alums playing high-major college ball that got all of the local press: Pat Riley and Dick Grubar. My dad loved baskeball and hated Adolph Rupp, but he thought this new coach at UNC, Dean Smith, was really likable. The rest, they say…
Still in Rochester. Only about 4 more months of winter for us!!
Dick Grubar from upstate NY. Most of our guys were from the City. I think Grubar got hurt in 1968 and that really hurt Carolina in the play-offs, but it might have been 1969. Rusty Clark was an M.D. from those teams.
FYI-
In 1997, there was a site (I think it was Hoops.com or .net or something) which was a chat room for college hoops fans. I used the same moniker that I use today. I remember one person had these three 3″x5″ aviatars of Vince Carter, Ok, and Antawn. It took like three minutes for the site to load whenever this person would post because the aves were 3 x 5 inches!!! Anyways, I remember the Duke fans raving about the incoming class of Battier, Brand, and Burgess…the “killer bees” as they called them. I think Magette had even commited by then. Dunleavy Jr. was headed our way until Dean retired.
Dunleavy’s dad played for Frank McGuire. I remember on AOL that it used to take forever to draw those little pictures and would tie up your transmission for a while. That is a good memory from the old days.
Sometimes these posts seem to go up randomly, and I didn’t see this from before but I agree 52bgj.
What pitcher would ever just throw the fastball? I admire the principles but it does seem to me that Roy sort of is stuck on this man thing and this screening thing, because they are the only real ways his system is different from Dean’s. I think it would have been interesting if UNC had slowed down the game against Kansas last year in the first half, just like Dean posted an egg against Duke in the first half one year. We played ever so predictably against Kansas that they knew what we were going to do before they did it.
Well, that is great when you are Cassius Clay in the 60′s and way better than everybody, but what do you do when you are facing someone just as good or better? How about a little rope-a-dope?
don’t know if that’s verbatim, it would seem to be edited
, as my preference was for a 2nd half zone (after the run), and Self destroyed them with the high screen (an ever so subtle adjustment), but it does capture the gist. good point in the edit however–I would like to see Roy pull a Deano “Loyola-Marymount special” sometime.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE7DD153FF933A15750C0A96E948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
random? just checking to see if someones paying attention.
William, I agree to a great extent with your posts. C. Michael, there is a point to be made with getting those “athletic” kids, and you’re right, it can be a gamble. I still think in 06-07 with Brandan Wright, and having Reyshawn was our best opportunity to win the whole damn thing. Yes, we played great last year, but really missed having big Brandon in that Kansas game. I guess one could make the argument that having Wright didn’t win it against Georgetown, so the Kansas game would have been the same with him, it’s just I like my chances better having another big guy like Brandon alongside Hansbrough. You really have to make the best of the opportunities you have when you get a Marvin or Brandon (in which we did with the former), but we failed to do that as we jacked up threes like it were easy as dunks against Georgetown. Maybe having Ed Davis is the same this year, so we need to find a way to make it happen before the wave crashes.
I simply do not understand what is happening with Ed Davis. From what I saw in the first half of the season, he has the talent and skills to be playing 30 minutes a game and posting a double double. While his offense has progressed more slowly than I expected, he must be terrible on defense in Roy’s opinion to be posting so few minutes as he did yesterday.
Also, we should remember that last year’s squad won three games in overtime(one in double overtime), one by one point, one by two points and lost one by 11 points, so by a power rankings point of view, we were less good than our almost pristine record in the Final Four.
The reverse happened in 2007. We lost almost every close game we were in during the regular season and blew people out in most of the other ones. The 2007 team probably lost to a better team in the Final 8 than the 2008 team beat, in Charlotte to go to the Final Four.
This year we should theoretically be better, but our four additions, Frasor, Davis, Drew and Zeller have contributed little.