I am under the weather and things look to be slow until after the awards banquet on Thursday at which point I fully expect we will get word on Ty Lawson and Wayne Ellington. Consider this your chance to discuss anything you want while I am sleeping this headache off.
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On an espn.com chat yesterday, Henson said that Roy told him he will play the three position next year. That being the case, our starting 5 will probably be:
Ed/Deon/Henson/Ginyard/Drew
Our front line will be 6’10, 6’8”, and 6’10. Wow.
Who would have thought Zeller would be coming off the bench?
THF – Wishing you a very rapid recovery, Leader.
^ wb
Here’s the second 5:
Strickland/McDonald/Graves/Zeller/Wear (with an additional Wear and Justin Watts for insurance).
Remember last year prior to the year we were talking about having 2 fivesomes and then the injuries and suspensions came into play. Looks like the Heels have plenty of bodies if they avoid similar setbacks.
Oh, did I mention that despite the injuries, etc, the HEELS won the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP!
deep bench.and if we happen to add a wall?or ty or wayne come back?whats also nice is the fact the wears are somewhat interchangable,with travis(i think)able to put the ball on the floor and drive alittle bit better than his brother.also,we could possibly add justin watts to that equation.get well soon thf.
that starting five has a lot of length on the defensive end wb.with ginyard teaching the freshman how to be lockdown defenders.man,i cant wait until next season.
WB3, that is an incredible starting 5. And the guys coming off the bench, The Wears, Strickland, McDonald. And for the 3rd tier, Justin Watts, Graves, and Zeller. Nice!
Does “3″ mean point forward?
For us older guys, we didn’t use that terminology when we were playing. I hear it all the time and I think this might be right but I wonder why analysts just don’t say the whole word. I understand that when typing it does save space to use the number.
“1″ means point guard? “2″ means shooting guard? “3″ means point forward, i.e., sort of like a swing man but taller? “4″ means power forward, i.e., inside banger? “5″ means down low center?
And btw, why did it have to be Mahktar being so creative? Anybody but him. He has to be the least popular UNC player of all time, just ahead of Donnie Walsh and Larry Brown.
little fuzzy on the young folks terminology william?but i must say you are correct sir.
Roy Williams uses those numbers to designate positions in his offense and zone defense (not man-to-man defense of course). Whoever is checks in the game is told that they are playing a number, which tells you what role you will play in running the different plays, etc.
1 = point guard
2/3 = wings
4/5 = post players
Traditionally speaking, the 2 is a shooting guard, 3 is a small forward, 4 is a power forward, and 5 is a center. Roy has really gotten away from those labels, however, and I think he got that from Dean.
If you think about it, this year preserves the tradition of UNC winning the title when they had an excellent swing man of under 6′ 6″. In 1982, you had Jordan; in 1993, you had Reese, probably the least accomplished in the category during a title run; in 2005, you had McCants and in 2009, you had Ellington.
We were talking yesterday about guys who benefit and don’t benefit by staying in the program, but Reese didn’t seem to improve that much. When he came in, I was expecting at least another Walter Davis, if not Michael Jordan.
^ Reese was very inconsistent and frequently made less than intelligent plays. (Stepping out of bounds with the ball in the Championship game against MI comes to mind).
I certainly pulled for the guy but I also remember that he had a very bad attitude about his playing time, etc.
i remember that as well.what about dante calabria?
Yeah, the passer was at fault too, but a player should always know where he is on the court. I wonder what would happen in an alternate universe where Reese doesn’t step out of bounds? The result could only be worse, lol.
^ That play certainly gave Michigan another shot at winning the game. In my alternative universe, Chris Weber is called for the travel he committed just prior to the ill fated (for Michigan) time out!
I’m heading to the Cleveland Cavs game tonight for the final home game of the regular season. Rumor is LeBron won’t suit up for the game to risk injury, but they recently signed Jawad Williams to replace the injured Eric Snow. I’m hoping Jawad sees some playing time tonight. I miss watching him go up for alley oops!
wow jawad.damn late shift.have to record to watch later.
True, but Michigan still would have been better off if they had called traveling. I know we had plenty of fouls to give so the result would have probably been the same, but with a missed free throw, Michigan still would have had a prayer to tie. And talking about where you are on the court, what if Jimmy whatever his name was, had not had his foot on the three point line? Then Michigan would have had the ball trailing by one before the Webber comedy of errors. I guess we still would have fouled to use up time but it would have made it more precarious if Michigan threw up a shot at the same time.
That game was a real chess match towards the end. I had thought it was over at 72-67, but I guess Michigan felt the same way at 67-63 when Carolina had nobody who wanted to shoot, except for the Don.
Didn’t Reese manage to miss that two-handed slam that would have put some game away? (Was it dook? My brain cells aren’t what they used to be.) As I recall, though, he did come back in that same game to redeem himself.
Last night the family and I were discussing whether Zeller will be the next Frasor – an early injury derails what seemed to be a promising, though perhaps not wildly lucrative, career. Zeller definitely did not look as aggressive in the games he played after the injury. He was usually good for more fouls than points, most of them not entirely cerebral (his line from the NC, 1 foul, 1 pt). He never quite seemed to grasp what was needed in the game situation.
My wife claims that all this was freshman inexperience and rustiness from the layoff and reminds me that Brad Daugherty looked like this a lot his freshman year. My son claims that the injury and recovery have made him tentative and afraid of establishing position with his body, so he picks up cheap fouls by reaching in out of position. I worry that he’s channelling Warren Martin.
My wife then pointed out that it is rather unfair for us adults (or non-adults, as the case may be) to place so many expectations on a group of young individuals and then pick apart every aspect of their performances. We derive personal satisfaction from their success (though most of us had no active part in it) but take none of the blame for their shortcomings. (She only takes this high road when they’re not playing; when they’re playing, I often have to cover my ears.) Her point is well-taken, and I think it is one of the many reasons that the NCAA should establish a pay system for collegiate athletes.
Anyway, it was an interesting and lively dinner discussion. Anyone care to add their $0.02?
Cincy was where Reese missed the dunk.
Zeller had only played two games when he got hurt, even though it seems like it was more. He was pretty decent against Penn, but this was not your father’s Penn. They were not very good. He was not good against Kentucky.
I have continually struggled to understand why people expected so much from him based on one performance against Penn. People were actually saying on the boards that he was going to come back and lead UNC to the title. He probably looked about the same after he came back, given the level of competition.
That being said, having him on the bench was a huge plus, even if he didn’t play much during the tourney because it affected how other teams played us.
I was going to laugh about the Brad Daugherty comparison, but looking back and looking up his stats, Daugherty did take until his junior year to reach his potential, although he was very young when he attended Carolina.
I think people got fooled by the fact that Zeller played in place of Hansbrough against Penn and assumed that meant Roy thought Zeller was better than Ed Davis, and gee, if Davis is this good, then Zeller must be sensational, but I doubt that was really Roy’s thinking. I bet it had to do with Davis being a 4 and Zeller being a 5–how’s that for the terminology–in actuality.
Daugherty was two years ahead of me and was a very friendly guy on campus. I really liked him and his game and fwiw, Zeller does play a little like him. I don’t know if he will be in any NBA All Star games though. Maybe Nascar?
Zeller’s injury was much different than Bobby’s ( broken wrist vs. acl), especially considering how Bobby’s game is most affected by issues regarding lateral motion, quickness, etc. It shouldn’t , and didn’t appear to, affect Z much at all, IMO.
Zeller came back at a time when the level of play was quicker and more intense, and the level of competition higher…he never entirely got up to speed. Add to that the fact that he was very inexperienced and his two-game resume was hardly a body of work to have a strong reference as to how he should or shouldn’t play when he came back.
Good points, LarryS. Your legs are everything in almost all sports. This was also Zeller’s left wrist.
I honestly think Bobby pretty much maxed out his freshman year, anyway, but I certainly could be wrong. It is hard for me to think of him as a Hinrich though, which is what people were saying when he came in.
Just seeing Zeller over there on the bench was very comforting when Tyler got a few fouls in one of those games. You knew we didn’t really need Hansbrough so much anymore for scoring but we did need a capable big body and Copeland just wasn’t it. It was worth it, I think, for all parties, to have Zeller come back.
Wow, I think any criticism of Zeller for his play during the last half of the season is unfair. He didn’t play well because he had been out so long.
This might seem crazy now, but don’t forget that he beat out Ed Davis for the 3rd post player position, and started the first two games (with Hansbrough out).
The problem now is that Ed Davis has looked so good, it is hard to imagine Zeller beating Ed out next year. So, that means Zeller will come off the bench. But that really isn’t so bad considering Zeller is still basically a freshman.
I also thought Z mixed it up pretty well near the bucket, from time to time. I truly believe his failure to establish a good defensive position had more to do with fundamental footwork and defensive techniques (thus the reach-in fouls), and somewhat a lack of quickness to a lesser degree, than his assertiveness. He has kind of a flowing-style appearance in the way he moves around and plays, but I think he’s tougher than imagined.
I too liked Brad. He was two years behind me at Charles D. Owen high school and at Carolina, the same year as my sister. I always thought it was rather a cruel irony that Roy left Owen HS for UNC shortly before Brad came along, although I believe Roy did coach one of Brad’s brothers at Owen — Craig, I think.
Since this is a random thread, I’ll share a little tidbit about Roy. When he was at Owen, his office was in the boys locker room. It was a small cubby-like thing that he shared with the assistant principal/assistant football coach. Roy would always have a joke ready, though as freshmen, we were all scared to death of him. He had a huge paddle (yes, there was corporal punishment in those days; dunno if it’s still true), and one day one of the freshmen, who had been held back a few years and whose nickname was “Flood” (because that’s what he seemed like to the defensive line when he played football), offered Roy a chance to paddle him. Roy took up position at one end of the locker room and Flood the other. Roy sprinted the length of the room, jumped and whacked Flood, who said “Ow!” like he was kinda surprised. Everyone laughed, and Roy shook hands with Flood.
Whenever anyone says that Roy is putting on his “Good Ole Boy Roy” act, I think back to that day and tell them that it is no act. Roy is what he is, through and through. There is not act, and I have always admired the man for that.
Well, I was wondering above whether he actually did in fact beat Davis out. You mentioned about the numbered positions. Roy may simply have felt Zeller complimented Deon Thompson’s game more than Ed Davis did. Until later in the year, we did not seem to see Davis and Deon in there together all that much.
I am checking the box scores and if I am looking right, Davis and Zeller actually played exactly the same number of minutes in the first two games, 45 minutes a piece. Davis had 19 points and 24 rebounds in those two games, while Zeller had 20 points and 3 rebounds.
Now that the class is almost closed, it might be interesting to look at the fabulous four who rebuilt the program after everybody left in 2005:
Marcus Ginyard: Has one more year. Has been pretty much about as good as advertised when recruited so far, a player any team would want but could be better offensively.
Bobby Frasor: Had a promising first year. Whether due to injuries or whatever, he never turned into a Kurt Hinrich-type player. His contributions his freshman year and down the stretch make up for this though and he is beloved by fans. But just based upon statistics and the recruiting news from 2005, Bobby has underperformed overall.
Danny Green: One of the rare guys who just measurably got better every year. He was hurt the worst by the huge recruiting haul in 2006 and probably deserved more minutes to an outsider. Much better than touted in the recruiting news. Had a great life story and a great personality. He will be remembered more than most past Tar Heels with similar careers, say your Brian Reese’s and Kris Lang’s.
Tyler Hansbrough: Not much to say. He didn’t improve as much as Danny Green, but that is also due to his being so sensational his freshman year. Better than touted in the recruiting news.
Question: There was almost a fifth to this class which could have made it a fabulous five. UNC finished second in the running for Uche Echefu from up here. I often wonder whether Echefu made a good choice and it is a tough one. He was a raw prospect and probably figured he would play more at FSU overall, but at the same time he missed a golden opportunity for UNC minutes in 2006. He ended up having a solid career, maybe similar to Ginyard’s so far, but I wonder he he might have made a difference last year against Kansas. He was big and a good outside and free throw shooter.
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=26994
WCHL in Chapel Hill had a pretty funny guest editorial on this morning about the the most important senior this year — Mike Copeland. The commentator said Copeland kept the guys loose with his sense of humor, his pre-game rituals with the starters during player introductions, and his status as shirt holder for the Dancing Danny “Jump Around” dance. It made me smile.
“Well, I was wondering above whether he actually did in fact beat Davis out.”
No, Zeller did beat Davis out. But the real reason is that Davis didn’t play very well in the pre-season. Roy said that Davis was a terrible “practice player”, but once in the game Davis looked much better. If Zeller hadn’t gotten injured, it is probably safe to assume Davis would have overtaken Zeller for the first man off the bench.
24 rebounds in Tyler’s absence probably is indicative of what can be expected for the future.
When the stats of Davis and Zeller from the Penn and Ky. games were mentioned earlier, my curiosity was aroused so I went back to revisit the box scores myself. One of the things that caught my attention from the Penn game was though our winning margin was 15 points, our free throw margin counted for 11 of those 15. Although I knew that drawing fouls and converting free throws was a big part of our game, it was a bigger part than I had imagined. Our average winning margin for the season was 17.8 and 8 of those points came from free throws, or 45%. I don’t know how this relates to the high end of the scale with that particular stat, but it has to be way up there, and certainly a big part of our offensive efficiency.
great story about Roy CA.Heel–I’ll share one–forgive me if it’s a repeat. A friend of mine used to waitress at a local restaurant, where the UNC gang (Dean, Roy, Larry Brown, etc, etc, even Cremins, and Jerry West occasionally make the trip) for their annual golf outing. She said that Roy is ALWAYS the one who makes sure the waitress gets a proper tip. He’s the real deal alright, and we are damned lucky to have him!
We fell off at the end, maybe due to the unfamiliar venues and stadiums, but this was the best free throw shooting team at UNC that I can recall in terms of who took free throws and what percentage they made and probably in percentage of points terms also. Drew is really going to have to work on this if he wants to be a successful point guard. He hit only 7-17 free throws this year.
There may have been teams that have say a top 7 with all shooting over seventy percent, compared to us with Deon and Ed, but Tyler and Ty and then Wayne and Deon were taking most of the free throws and especially Tyler and Ty, both at over 80 percent, took over 50 percent of our free throws. Danny and Wayne were good too. That is why I always felt pretty confident with a lead with this group. I saw improvement in both Deon and Ed and Zeller has a good stroke.
Yeah, this team was pretty deadly from the charity stripe. Even when our good FT shooters missed, it was rarely during crunch time.
That was another thing about Tyler that was so special. Yes he got to the line a lot, much to the chagrin of the ABCers. But to his credit he hit them, which is a lot more than can be said for most big guys who battle down low. All that needs to be said about his FT ability is that he’s way ahead in 1st place in free throws made but well behind in 2nd in free throws attempted.
^^^ Zeller is a project physically although he has great skill and court savvy. It was apparent that when the competition got heavy in the NCAA tourney he wasn’t a match for the OK’s, Villanova’ and Michigan States of the world. Davis was able to match the strength of those guys inside.
Roy truly does have many qualities and values, 52bg, that are not just good for our univerity and student-athletes, but a good model for all of us. A seemingly trivial and insignificant, yet, to me, quite dumbfounding recent event, was when the AAU coach, Brian Clifton, was quoted in news reports as having said Roy was a bad person. Of course we’ve all dismissed this, and probably couldn’t care less about why and how he feels that way (although part of me would like to have been a fly on the wall to see how it all started), but it struck me as one of the more preposterous things I’ve heard a person in such a position of leadership say in a long time, and hard for me to imagine how anyone could have felt he was done so wrong as to warrant that sentiment. Not meaning to resurrect this soap opera, but I just wanted to comment on how incredibly inappropriate it was to have made that so public. So I hereby nominate Brian Clifton for the A.S.S. (Advanced Sensitivity Syndrome) award for 2009.
I don’t think enough can be said about the timing of Zeller’s return. Not only did he miss valuable practice time, but by the time he came back it was like a true freshman against seasoned players. Additionally (as was mentioned above) he was facing pretty stiff competition without the benefit of getting his “sea legs” against lesser teams (as most freshman would). I really didn’t expect to see much improvement or production from him when he returned. At least he gained some experience. Now hopefully he can also gain some weight/strength.
UNC was #15 in the NCAA in FT%, and the best of all the teams in the final Top 25.
Maybe no college will get John Wall.
http://blogs.newsobserver.com/prepsnow/john-wall-to-2009-nba-draft
Nobody will admit anymore that they thought Zeller would be more of a key than he turned out to be, but check the bulletin boards before the NC State game.
In terms of criticizing Zeller, I don’t think anyone is doing that. He had a decent freshman year for the amount he played. Some people had unrealistic expectations after the Penn game that he was going to be a freshman Nowitzki or something. Eric Montross didn’t light the place up his freshman year, either (and was always a terrible free throw shooter, although I don’t remember noticing at the time, maybe he hit the big ones, lol). Neither did Tommy Laguarde or Mitch Kupchak. Time will tell.
^ The plain language of the CBA would prevent Wall from declaring. I seriously doubt he would go down that road.
This guy’s list of colleges is fairly long, but he says he wants to win and to stay close to home. UNC seems to be the perfect fit…
“Nobody will admit anymore that they thought Zeller would be more of a key than he turned out to be, but check the bulletin boards before the NC State game”
It was important to have Zeller on the bench had DT, TH or ED gotten in foul trouble or was injured. That was his importance but in the end we really didn’t need him.
Absolutely.
I am just wondering where all the people who were saying that he was going to be the offensive difference for the team are?
Does it matter? People were wrong. They expected too much. In the end UNC still won the title and I think the minutes they got from Zeller were important at times.
Nobody is disputing that. At least, I don’t think CA.Heel was saying that at all. He just asked for people to provide their opinions about Zeller’s rookie year and said he was worried about the injury and its possible effects and whether too much was hoped for to begin with. Since I was originally (wrongly) against his coming back and losing the redshirt, I can’t really say why some people expected more.
I think it is a legitimate basketball point, though.
I think some of the chatter about Zeller’s return was more hopeful (or wishful) thinking than based on any facts. It would have to be since there were few facts on which to base any opinion about his expected performance.
Luckily we really didn’t need Zeller to produce in order to win a title. It will be interesting to see his progress over the summer, and will also be interesting to see if his decision to burn his redshirt was a good one. I’m not so sure he is lock for early departure, at least not until he bulks up a bit and becomes more aggressive.
Right around the time Zeller came back (coincidentally or not) Davis came on gangbusters. Roy said that he wished he could play Zeller more than he was able to play him. That means that Roy was pleased with Zeller’s play, but still couldn’t get him in the game. While Roy didn’t (and wouldn’t) say this explicitly, the reason Zeller didn’t play more was quite clearly that Davis ate up any minutes Zeller could have got. For anyone to pass judgment on Zeller’s play based on 3-5 minutes a game makes little sense.
In the end, Zeller was nothing more an insurance policy in the unlikely event that we had three post players in foul trouble.
As for whether Zeller played any valuable role, I think he did help out big time in the Oklahoma game when Blake nearly fouled out the other three post players. Zeller’s 6 minutes in that game were important. That was our closest game, even though Okla’s guards couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn.
As for expectations about what Zeller was going to do when he came back, anyone who thought Zeller would play a big role as the 4th post player wasn’t thinking very much. Roy doesn’t usually rotate 4 post players.
He was a Mr. Indiana. Maybe that was driving it.
They have so much depth down low next year, that maybe that could change things but I could easily see him averaging 13 points and 5 boards next year, which is historically quite good for Carolina 2nd year big men. Perkins and B. Wright were probably the main exceptions where they were sensational from day one pretty much.
As to the Davis improvement, it was still pretty deep into the season where Davis wasn’t even getting as many minutes as Frasor some games. For whatever reason, rightly as it turned out, Roy wanted to go small.
I would prefer avoiding an environment where we have to confess to or admit being right or wrong about certain basketball opinions and prognostications. Of course a little good-natured competition is fun, as is having bragging rights, but I believe posts are often initiated with a desire to be right or prove others wrong rather than adding to the body of information and analysis.
lol–I’ll second the nomination Larry! ftr–I believe Roy was simply flushing the guy out.
I am just interested in knowing what was driving the opinions. Some more knowledgeable people than I may have seen something in him and just because we didn’t need it, doesn’t necessarily mean it wasn’t there. Maybe 99% was just wishful thinking.
Here is a fun rumor: Wayne to return as UNC’s point guard:
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/messages/thread/14504652
c’mon william–man up and admit you were calling peeps out. even when you admit you were wrong on yesterday’s thread, you had a 3 paragraph qualifier.
I do think there is value in everyone manning up and admitting being wrong–Seth Davis, are you listening?–but I didn’t start this thread.
“Nobody will admit anymore that they thought Zeller would be more of a key than he turned out to be, but check the bulletin boards before the NC State game”
Big difference between the bulletin boards and THF, where most of us post with a modicum of responsibility. I don’t think anyone here was claiming Zeller would be the difference. There were a lot who thought it was the right move (like myself), but this was primarily because we (I) thought:
1) He would add depth to the front court.
2) He would gain experience that would benefit him going into next year.
3) It’s unlikely that he would use a 5th year, anyway. A seven-footer with his offensive skills rarely stays past 3 full seasons.
Undoubtedly John Henson will be more knowledgable about UNC history after his tenure here is complete. But for now, he’s still quite the trivia newbie. In an ESPN chat room interview, he mentioned that although Michael Jordan had walked past him at the Duke game, he had not officially met him. He said that he had met some of the other famous UNC players: Felton, May, Howard (as in Juwan Howard, Sean and Raymonds’ Bobcats teammate, who was sitting next to them at the game). Little did he realize how much Juwan was on the opposite end of that spectrum.
Here’s the interview:
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=25978
It probably was much more true on the IC boards. I don’t think any of the regular posters on here went too far out on a limb. There was some ridiculous stuff on IC. I was probably the most wrong regular poster on this site. I honestly thought at the time he should keep the red shirt.
Who knows, maybe if he averages 11 points and 6 points in two more years, he will wish he had. Of course, now we know he got to be a member of a title team so I doubt he will regret his decision no matter what.
Just wondering, Does Ginyard get any sort of title recognition, or how does that work?
I really could see Wayne returning (maybe not at point guard though). Another year and he could be a lottery lock, assuming he can continue to improve the other aspects of his game (driving to the hoop, defense, ability to take over a game). He came a long way this year, and with a Final Four MOP under his belt maybe he should strike while the iron is hot, but who knows?
Heck I thought last year around this time we were looking at losing Wayne, Ty, and Danny to the NBA and they proved me wrong. Certainly the situation is different now, and Ty is gone for sure, but I’m not so sure about Wayne. Anybody know what the general consensus is regarding his draft position?
There are two question Wayne will need answered. First, will someone promise to pick him in the first round. If the answer is yes, he will head on to the NBA. If the answer is no, should he take a non-guaranteed 2nd round contract or return to UNC and move into the first round. Next year, the offense would revolve around Wayne, so he would have the chance to improve.
My guess is that if he doesn’t get the 1st round contract he will return. I wonder if someone will take a chance on him this year?
Can Wayne improve some more, a la Danny Green? If there is a good chance that he is done improving than he should go pro.
That is the $64,000 question.
Wayne’s big problem is that he can’t test the waters, so it is going to b hard for him to get the most accurate read. According to this, he’s actually rated AHEAD of Lawson, at #12:
http://www.nbadraft.net/2009mock_draft
If Wayne isn’t a first round pick this year, he would come back as the #1 option in the offense. If he can still do his thing with the defenses keying on him, he will likely have proved his worth as a first round pick, even if he technically doesn’t “improve.”
“Just wondering, Does Ginyard get any sort of title recognition, or how does that work?”
He gets the ring, and any other spoils. As does Graves.
Good for them.
Here is a quote from the Washingtonian Magazine:
Why can’t the Wizards put a decent team on the floor?
They made the playoffs four years in a row even with injuries. But now they’re not competitive. No one is competitive without his best players. So without Gilbert Arenas and Brendan Haywood, the Wizards have no chance. None. It’s a players’ league. I don’t care who’s coaching.
Who would have thought someone would be making that statement about Haywood and not about Montross or May? Apparently, he is a defensive genius, because his rebounding and point totals are less than they were even at UNC. He is still a crummy free throw shooter, too, but good from the floor.
Good for him. I always liked Haywood.
Don’t you mean the $640,000 question? I actually do think Wayne could improve, at least marginally, but I wonder which team, of those top 20 teams, is going to make him their #1 choice. Otherwise, he probably shouldn’t expect much of an improvement, financially speaking, in the draft. Remember, going up 8 spots in the lower half of the first round is only a difference of $200,000. That may be worth waiting for, but he could also go down.
CM, again I hope that projection is close to right for Wayne’s sake, but I think it’s way too high.
The NBA desperately needs someone who can do what Wayne did in college this year, but I don’t know if he can make it translate or not. McCants couldn’t. Since Arenas got hurt, you just don’t see many of those types of players anymore, Kobe excepted, I guess.
nbadraft.net is garbage. draftexpress.com is way better and it has Weezy on the first round bubble.
Wayne is leaving if he is a first round pick; that’s it.
“nbadraft.net is garbage. draftexpress.com is way better”
I’ve actually found the exact opposite to be true and I’ve been following these sites for years.
William. Thanks for sheding some light on Tyler Zeller’s production. I got criticized just a few threads ago about how I thought people’s expecations of him were too high, and I thought folks also gave him too much credit for the little production he did bring. With that being said, it was always nice to have him for that “just in case” moment. I still am not convinced he is anything other than a short Manute Bol.
William, also nice little post about that 2005-2006 class. I will be forever grateful for what they accomplished in that season by beating Duke, finishing 2nd in the ACC, and making the ncaa tournament. We were very relevant that year, when everyone (including the media) thought we were an NIT team at best.
WB3. I, like you, do not feel he needs to improve. I just think scouts would like to know if the 2nd half of the season Ellington is the one they are going to be witnessing. Another season of the production he gave us in the 2nd half of last season, then he has to be up there in the top 10. I mean, he looked like Ray Allen out there in the tournament.
LarryS, that misunderstanding Henson had about Juwan Howard is hilarious. Flat out hilarious. Wonder what Karl Malone would think if I walked up to him and told him how impressed I was with his Chicago Bulls. Haha.
Maybe he remembers Dwight Howard showing some interest in UNC and mistaking it for that.
“nbadraft.net is garbage. draftexpress.com is way better”
I’ve actually found the exact opposite to be true and I’ve been following these sites for years.
nbadraft.net has ellington as a lottery pick, while operationsports.com has him barely in the first round. the proof will be in the pudding as far as I am concerned. this will be another “I was right, I was wrong segment” unless Ellington is picked in the middle between lotto and the end of the first round.
Watch that be the case WB3! So none of us can be right or wrong.
LarryS, I also am in the line of thinking it serves no use to try to show up others with certain arguments. I know I have said I think that Zeller is just not that great, but it is my wish he becomes a 30ppg scorer. I could care less about showing you or anyone else up. I have a perspective on almost everything. I defend my positions. If this was some multi-faceted site I would think differently. But we are here, in most, in one accord about UNC basketball.
“…unless Ellington is picked in the middle between lotto and the end of the first round.”
Honestly, if I had to guess, that is were I would expect him to go (20ish). At this point, it’s really hard to have any idea until it is known who is in, and who is not.
Of course the pool of players, who stays and who goes, will affect all the mock drafts, but these are some of the current ones regarding Wayne Ellington. None of them are perfect and they can change a lot literally down to the last day. The first four are considered A+ Pro sites (vs. media or fantasy) who seem to have been at this a while. I’ve also read comments by 2 or 3 scouts, in online articles, that generally have him going late in the first round. Obviously 1st or 2nd round is the key for Wayne.
NBA Draft Net #12
Draft Express #28
College Hoops Update #28
Hoops Report #24
ESPN #31
“He gets the ring, and any other spoils. As does Graves.”
define “spoils”
Thanks, JBowling. Uche Echefu, anyone think he has prospects?
here’s some food for thought: some KU fans are already tossing out the U-word (undefeated) if they were to land Henry & Stephenson. An upset of KU would be nearly as sweet in those circumstances as a NC. That would be six shades of awesome. There might even be hits put out on Roy.
It’s a good thing we around here are immune to the temptations of euphoria produced by those precocious high school recruits.
heh!
Staying away from injuries, I think it can be done. Roy went 37-2 one year or something like that at KU.
William-
I think it was Roy’s ’97 team. I want to say they ended up with a 34-2 record, but lost to Zona in the Sweet 16. I think it’s safe to say that Roy does not want to recollect the ending of either the 1997 or 2003 seasons.
By the way, who is the guy in that photo standing to Vince Carter’s left?
I should clarify. Who is the dude standing between Vince and Mahktar in that photo?
maybe, but I guarantee you KU Nation’s *** would be puckering if they arrived undefeated & ending up facing Roy & UNC in a late round. I’d love that scenario–underdog with nothing to lose and no “Roy ghost demons”.
that’s Julius Peppers DF.
Also, Newby sighting between Mahktar and Peppers. Chatham County represent.
You know, I just noticed something about that sign even though I’ve been seeing it for several days. Shouldn’t there be a question mark at the end of it?
Yes, but in their defense, it was not their sign.
“The plain language of the CBA would prevent Wall from declaring. I seriously doubt he would go down that road.”
Maybe not… Remember, John Wall was not a McD’s All-American this year, and the reason why is the same reason why he could go pro: he is a 5th year senior. His graduating class was technically 2008, which means he is technically eligible.
Although the NBA’s view of John Wall’s status is yet to be determined, it will be a moot point unless he applies for the draft. I would be extremely surprised if the NBA allowed his application because I believe they would view the fact that his transfer to a school who reclassified him from a junior back to a sophomore would establish a different class with which he was deemed to graduate, in his case 2009. Reclassification = New graduating class. Since he is set to graduate May 21, with the current class in which he was reclassified, he won’t meet the “one year removed from graduation” rule. If he lies, and the NBA rules in his favor under these unique circumstances they will indeed be going down the provebial slippery slope regarding future players who may take this route.
“If he lies, and the NBA rules in his favor under these unique circumstances they will indeed be going down the proverbial slippery slope regarding future players who may take this route.”
Should read: ” If he applies, and the NBA rules in his favor………”
LarryS, I was trying to make sense out of the first post, kept scratching my head, and then read your second post. Got it.
I would venture to say along with you, that doing this would set an awful bad precedent. You know, once it is done, you have to continue to do it. So, NBA, don’t!
Here is an interesting article about fifth-year seniors, and Wall in particular, competing in high school athletics.
http://www.highschoolot.com/content/blogpost/4817848/
No, the plain language of the CBA says one year after graduation from high school. That means you get a high school diploma and wait one year. Wall doesn’t have a high school diploma yet, so his one year clock hasn’t even begun.
While Wall could try to challenge the rule based on being in high school for 5 years, he wouldn’t win.
I know we all obsess about different stuff, but I am just going to wait and see if Wall comes. My only question would be why were/are we so loaded with bigs and so thin with ballhandlers? If Drew II was only a top 75 prospect and we all knew Lawson wasn’t coming back, then why all the success with the big guys and not with guards? Maybe it has to do with Tyler and next year, we will get some Lawson positive recruiting feedback.
Don’t forget UNC has had a commitment from Kendall Marshall for a long time, and Kendall is projected to be a big-time PG prospect, so with Drew as a Sophomore, and Marshall coming in next year, it really didn’t make sense to recruit another PG, unless he was going to be a one-and-doner.
Also, aside from Wall and a few others, it’s a pretty weak year for PGs. I think there are only 11 or 12 in the ESPNU 100.
Well, it is definitely a moot point now, and I agree wb3, I don’t see how this could have been remotely construed as falling within the NBA rules. Like you said, Time of Graduation = One Year Wait. Oddly enough, I believe the only way he could have possibly tested it would have been to not graduate, then it still would have been extremely in doubt since I feel 2009 would be considered the class in which he would have graduated after reclassifying. Here’s the latest N&O update:
“Raleigh Word of God point guard John Wall told USA Today that he does not plan to enter the 2009 NBA basketball draft.
Wall said Wednesday that he never planned to file paperwork with the NBA this year.”
“I was kind of shocked,” he said of ESPN reports that he was contemplating entering the draft.
“I’ve never considered it, never thought about it. You don’t have to worry about me not going to college. I promised my mom and my dad, before he died, that I wouldn’t go from high school to the NBA.”
The heresay and conjecture surrounding this “non-story” make certain media, and the ridiculous quote below by Sonny Vaccaro in a N&O article earlier today (no wonder sports agents and marketing executives have such a bad rep), not even meet the National Enquirer-standard of reporting.
“Former sports marketing executive Sonny Vaccaro expects him to apply for the draft and to get the NBA’s go-ahead.
“Game, set, match. They have no argument [to deny Wall],” said Vaccaro.”
Honestly, I am starting to get tired of all this posturing by Wall. I know we got Wright late but I don’t remember all this kind of ongoing manipulation.
Good points, C.Michael. About the possible Tyler effect, UCLA got a string of really good big men after Alcindor went there and I wonder if UNC could experience a similar thing. I feel pretty sure that a lot of these guys were watching Hansbrough back in 9th grade.
^ We are also building a little bit of a track record with Ed Davis looking like a lottery pick already. Combined with Calhoun’s status a little up-in-the-air now, we could become the top destination for big men.
Yeah, plus Roy is dealing a bit better than most coaching with integrating the one year guys and making them buy into the program. I wonder if Wright is working on his degree or how that works. I assume you have to pay your own way out of state if you leave early?
I really see no posturing from John Wall himself. He’s pretty much doing what he’s said he was going to do all along which is wait and decide, and an easy decision it’s not. All the drama seems to occur from the outside, media and otherwise, from those interested in putting their twist on every rumor that comes along. I can totally dismiss the possiblities of his coming to UNC, which I actually already have, and be highly intrigued with the situation. He’s certainly the biggest story left leading up to the end of 2009 recruiting, and an exciting player to keep an eye on in the future.