Correction: According to ACC Now, the questions about Delvon Roe during the postgame press conference came from a Michigan radio host and not David Mayo. I assumed it was Mayo because the same wording was used in the story and the question that was asked. Mayo picked up the story and ran with it in his own column.
UPDATE: Roy takes shot at David Mayo of the Grand Rapids Press during the Friday press conference. While discussing John Wall’s recruitment he said:
…that was during his junior year I guess. I’m not positive so make sure you put it in “I guess.” Over the last couple of days we’ve seen people pull things out just to make their own story regardless of whether it was the truth or not.
That was a clear salvo lobbed in Mayo’s general direction. As was this one at the end of the press conference:
Anybody that’s fair. Anybody that’s fair and some you guys were here and sat here listened to the whole thing. And then to pull something out like that is not being fair. That’s the bottom line. So, yes I’ll talk to Tom. That young man that sat right there he had his own story made up before I said anything. That’s the problem I have. That’s what I alluded to a minute ago. He had his mind made up because..you guys were here. I said great kid, great family. You guys remember me saying that? At one thing I said “don’t try to make something out of something that’s not there.” And that kid has his mind made up.
I have tremendous amount of respect for Tom Izzo and I said “this is a great kid.” And I said “don’t try to make something out of something that is not there” And one person tried to make something out of something that is not there. And the bottom line is that’s not right.
–
Which is interesting since they are purportedly good friends. Prior to the game they sat and talked on the Michigan St. bench for a few minutes during early warm-ups. Tom Izzo was asked about the comments Roy Williams made concerning Delvon Roe following the game on Wednesday and had this to say.
“I was very proud of how he handled it, because I didn’t appreciate it,” Izzo said of Roe. “I wasn’t going to let that be a big thing in the game. But of all the kids in the world that we’re going to pick on, they picked the wrong kid. I can give him a handful that he can pick on who maybe wouldn’t be as honest and up front about things, but him and his family? No, he picked the wrong kid.
“The other thing I thought was wrong was the insinuation like, almost, that Michigan State did something wrong to get him. So he picked the wrong kid, he picked the wrong family and he picked the wrong program. And there’ll be a time. There’ll be a time.”
Williams first singled out Roe in his book, “Hard Work: A Life On and Off the Court,” when he claimed a certain recruit committed to North Carolina then “lied” to him by going to Michigan State instead.
First of all, now I have the answer to the question that I asked in car on the way on Wednesday night: Who was the reporter who asked Roy about whether Delvon Roe lied? The answer is David Mayo, Grand Rapids Press. That also explains why Roy got so testy with him. Had it been Caulton Tudor or Eddy Landry then Roy’s response would have been measured . In this case, he went full boar on Mayo, especially since Mayo said Roy accused Roe of lying to him. Here is the relevant passage from the book, I’ll let you be the judge:
Kids have lied to me. I once had a recruit ask me to gather all of my assistant coaches and secretaries and everybody else we could find into my office, so he could commit to me in front of a huge group. We all cheered and hugged, and then six weeks later he called to tell me he was going to Michigan State.
When Roy was asked about it, presumably by Mayo, he indicated he never said Roe lied which was true to a point. What he said is “kids have lied to me” then provided an example which we all know was Roe. So, Roy did not say “Roe lied to me” but he did use Roe(albeit unnamed) as an example of a time when “kids have lied” to him. I guess that means he said “Roe lied” to him in a de facto or some other Latin word I don’t know sort of way. Which might be beside the point because Roe did lie to him. As Roy points out: “He told me he was coming, he didn’t come. I’ve looked every day at practice, and I haven’t seen him yet.” Should Roy have done there? Probably not but what’s done is done.
Now, we find out Izzo is not happy with what Roy said or rather what he thinks Roy said. I get the impression, based on Izzo’s comments, that he has not seen the whole quote in context from Wednesday night and possible even the book. The way his comments read it seems like Mayo fed him the juicy chunk of the quote without the context which included, among other things, Roy talking about Roe being a “wonderful kid” and also how it should not be made into a bigger story than it is. Nowhere in any of that or in the book is there insinuation that MSU was at fault, in fact Roy has nothing but great things to say about Izzo and MSU. Also, nowhere in any of this did I perceive Roy was picking on Roe, his family, his coach, the MSU program or his pet parakeet. Roy said, yes they recruited him, they though they were getting him. Roe said he was coming but went to MSU instead. Does that mean Roe lied? Well…um….yes it does. At the same time I think everyone, Roy included, understands that Roe simply made a hasty decision when he committed and when his recruitment played out he wanted to play for Izzo. At the end of the day, no harm, no foul and I would expect Roy will give Izzo a call and smooth this out before you can say “dadgum.”
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Dadgum.
I can’t really blame Izzo for his comments. We’d all expect Roy to do the same if there was ever an insinuation from K (directly, or from the media) that Wright or Barnes did the same.
Another thing, do we know for SURE that Roe was the player Roy was talking about? Roy and KU were pretty hot after Shannon Brown before he ended up choosing MSU…
Yes. Roe had Roy get everyone in his office then he committed. Also, the timetable is dead on. Roe was at the Duke-UNC game on March 4, 2007 but committed to MSU on April 17, 2007. Six weeks.
I certainly don’t know all the facts, but to be honest, I think Roy could have been alot more vague in the book and still gotten the point across to the reader (that recruiting is a tough business).
What’s with the “there’ll be a time” crap from Izzo? Does he mean there will be a time when MSU beats the Heels in bball? Maybe, but Izzo is still waiting for it.
It is Izzo’s duty to protect his players, so I have no problem with what he did. I hate to say it, but I don’t know why Coach Williams let this become such a big deal. I mean come one – the recruits who came to UNC got a Championship Ring – Roe did not. That’s the best way to get back at someone for not being honest. After that, just let it go…
The problem now is that the press will be the ones to make this such a big deal.
My guess is that Izzo is not happy with 89-82 either.
In order to mend bridges, Roy has agreed to let Izzo’s team get a 10pt lead before Roy’s team will even attempt a shot if/when the two teams meet again.
Sounds like a local MSU beat writer wants to make a mountain out of a mole hill…….
Roy shouldn’t have so directly mentioned Roe’s change of heart in his book. That’s what put him in the position of dealing with it in the press conference. The young man obviously made a mistake in how he handled the situation, but keeping that a private matter would have served everyone the best, even if Roy was as mad as a hornet. I admire Roy’s decision to be so honest in his book, but there are consequences to that decision and he’s paying the price for honesty when dealing with the media. The people in the media always say they want honesty from the people in sports, but they have a heavy incentive to use that honesty against you if they can. This whole episode of leaving a kid and his family embarrassed and possibly straining a good relationship with Tom Izzo, who has a responsibility to back up his players, wouldn’t be an issue if he doesn’t mention the words Michigan State University in reference to the incident.
^Totally agree. Roy should have simply said “Kid said he was coming to UNC… then went to another school”
I mentioned this on the earlier post that no one seemed interested in but I think that Roy’s defense is akin to saying it was a run-on sentence. There is no logical connection between the two sentences about lying and Roe not coming; and I mean logic in a formal sense. Kids lie. One kid went into a bunch of histrionics and then didn’t come, i.e., that is bad too but it is not the same as saying Roe lied.
When I say no logical connection in a formal sense, what I mean is in terms of deductions. What there is, is the more everyday sort of logic that tells us that when two things are together, they are together for a reason. I think Roy’s defense is basically poor writing.
I honestly think the book has a worse tone than the Adam Lucas book (and Adam received no thanks in the credits interestingly enough). Roy manages to make himself look better and worse perhaps, at the same time than Lucas did and I guess that is just Roy being Roy. Better than being boring, I guess.
I honestly thought the Jaron Rush anecdote was worse and meaner, especially in light of what Brandon Rush wrought on Roy and the Heels. I am not sure why Roy didn’t just leave out mention of MSU and then it could have been any number of recruits perhaps from Kansas or UNC.
I will say that Dean Smith may have been more measured in his books but I did think that Dean was unfair to Rasheed Wallace in calling him out in his book for not graduating. I did not think that was appropriate unless Wallace agreed to Smith’s putting that in the book.
I guess how it is being taken is this way:
Kids have lied to me.
(For example) I had one kids who blah, blah, committed and then six weeks later went to MSU.
It is written like the specific anectdote is an example of “Kids have lied to me” therefore it is being construed as “Roe lied to me.” Which he did so I am not sure why he gets dinged for telling the truth. I do know the media is twisting this a bit and using the inference as though that was how it was written when it was not that way.
I don’t know if the kid was 18 or not yet, but let’s be honest, one reason why coaches encourage that sort of “coming out” is because it makes it harder to renege later, given the lack of a formal commitment. It is the same reason why cops and prosecutors like to talk to defendants without a lawyer present, which is basically “undue influence.”
The whole thing seems pretty silly to me. If I had ever been in such a situation, I would want it to be very low key. The last thing I would want is to “come out” to everybody in the UNC basketball office. It reminds me of some of those ridiculous team building scenarios on “The Office.”
Izzo needs to get a grip and read the whole quote.
Delvon lied. Fact. Roy used in in his book in a way that people who follow those things would figure it out, as if that had not happened. Fact.
Roy has clearly let it go and moved on. He does not hold the lie against Roe. Izzo needs to move on as well. He has no responsibility to defend his athlete from the truth.
THF, I think Roy is getting dinged for telling the truth, because it may come off as a cheap shot to some. As I said in my previous comment, I agree that the media is twisting this to serve as a juicy story, but there is no story to twist if Roy doesn’t mention MSU. I haven’t read the book so I may be way off on this, but from what I gather is the point that Roy was making, mentioning MSU’s involvement wasn’t necessary information. If it wasn’t necessary to mention MSU, then he’s opened himself up to accusations of taking a malicious shot at the kid, possibly calling Tom Izzo a dirty recruiter, and calling Roe and his family liars. Now those accusations would be interpreting Roy’s words in the worst light, and I’m sure that his intention wasn’t to imply any of those things, but his own words opened up the possibility. I think this whole deal is one where the young man and his family, Roy, and members of the media could have handled their parts in the situation differently and I hope that the relationships between Roy and the members of the MSU team aren’t damaged too badly by this. The members of the media obviously have no reason that would compel them to change.
It is tough being 18 or so nowadays. You can’t drink because American society deems you as being incapable of making a mature decision but at the same time, we live in a society that until recently sought the death penalty for 15 year olds.
Roe was a kid, not an adult. The same goes for Jaron. I am not comfortable with what Roy said about either of those kids. That doesn’t make Roy a bad person, just an outspoken one who makes mistakes sometimes because he is too honest. Dean never said much of anything until K started getting his goat and then Dean made some mistakes too, like sort of revealing (not entirely) the SAT scores of some Duke players. I would have been livid if K had done that about one of our guys, even though I did understand the point that Dean was making about racisim and agreed with it.
Finally, for those of you who keep throwing the word lie around. Get a grip. It is only a lie if he knew that he had no intention of going to Carolina when he made the statement. If he changed his mind later, that is called reneging or breach of contract or breach of a verbal agreement or what have you. To call it a lie, without any of you knowing Roe’s state of mind at the time is simply untenable.
^Totally agree, William, including the point about Dean and the SAT scores. If people want to call Roe a liar, you could say the same thing about Roy changing his mind and deciding to come back to UNC. I know I’ve heard more than enough from Kansas fans on that one.
Wow. That is a great point. I think that pretty much ends the discussion.
Mayo is obviously a great journalist…
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2009/02/press_sports_columnist_david_m_1.html
850inExile –
“It is Izzo’s duty to protect his players, so I have no problem with what he did. I hate to say it, but I don’t know why Coach Williams let this become such a big deal. I mean come on – the recruits who came to UNC got a Championship Ring – Roe did not. That’s the best way to get back at someone for not being honest. After that, just let it go…”
This is the response with which I most agree. I don’t approve of Roe’s behavior, and a person who’s 18 knows better. At the same time, every big time coach knows you don’t really have a committment until you have the LOI (indeed even then it’s questionable, since the word “committment” has less and less meaning).
We just coddle kids to death these days, we have to tip-toe around things in society. The MEDIA is self-serving to say the least. (I could really get going on the Media, but I won’t) Roy has moved on, he was just painting a picture for his book. I guess he should have waited until he was retired, but he didn’t. So Roy just called it like he saw it. He felt a man’s word(yes, MAN; he recruits young MEN) should be enough. If a man’s word isn’t something to stand for then what is. Hurt? Betrayed? Lied to? Upset? Upset perhaps. But again I say…Roy moved on…so should everyone else.
I’m not a journalist, but I would think that any member of any news coverage media would tell you that the goal should be to set the narrative before the big event. The game is over. This story has no legs. Tom Izzo made his comments, but he is gonna be more concerned about his next opponent than anything else. Izzo fired back like a proud leader would, and when you couple the fact that the press clippings read “Can’t Beat UNC” for the umpteeth time, he’s gonna be a little steamed.
On Roy’s end, we all know him by now. The guy’s gonna say what he’s thinking. He’s earned the right. Delvon Roe DID completely back out after a commitment was apparent. I don’t feel sorry for him by any means, nor do I condone Roy’s actions/words.
If it makes you feel any better:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaun_Livingston
or
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/player?statsId=4286
Well, Roy was a man and in a very similar situation, on a public podium in front of thousands of people in Kansas, said “I am staying.”
Was he lying when he said that? Was Roy’s word not something to stand up for? Or did Roy’s life and work situation simply change, as may have Roe’s? If someone thinks they can parse this difference between the two situations, then have at it. No one has made as of yet a convincing rebuttal to Marcus’s example and I doubt it is possible to do so.
It is actually incredibly ironic that Roy even chose to raise the loyalty/promise issue given his heavy, heavy baggage involved with the same issues in leaving Kansas, a school that give him a chance that UNC never would have in a similar situation.
I as far as I am concerned if Roy Williams had said Delvon Roe was a damn liar then he is a damn liar. If Roy alluded to the fact that someone has lied in the past then they lied. I back up my school and my coach period, point blank. I am a Tarheel born and a Tarheel bred and when I die I will be a Tarheel dead. Screw everyone else. Period, point blank.
Is there a difference between lying and changing your mind? Seems to me that Roe changed his mind; he probably wasn’t trying to deceive Roy for some purpose. That said, Roy maybe wrong on this one, if only by poor word choice.
william –
Let’s assume, strictly for purposes of argument, that Coach Williams was guilty of the same sort of wrongdoing as Roe. That has nothing to do with the assessment of Roe’s behavior, which must stand on its own. The charge of hypocrisy is a form of false balancing, and diversionary to boot.
When I was a federal prosecutor, there was many a government witness who had led a less than exemplary life. But when they told the truth about the defendant’s drug deals, it was not any less the truth because of their past misdeeds, nor did it dilute the defendant’s culpability for his own behavior.
That said, the whole thing is overblown. Let’s be happy with the remarkable improvement in Larry Drew’s game instead of dwelling on Roe.
Okay. Roy lied back when he backed out. In 2001, he said he was coming, and I looked back at videos that year and he wasn’t here.
Plenty of fans, myself included, were pretty mad. Gut wouldn’t talk to Roy.
But we moved on. Roy is still a great guy and a fantastic coach, and I wish him the best.
The original issue was this:
Did Roy call the kid a liar? The answer strictly from the text is no. Inductively, one might believe Roy did, however.
The second sub-issue raised was whether reneging or changing one’s mind is the same as lying. It is not.
The third sub-issue raised was whether Roy and Roe engaged in similar behavior. It seems that they did.
Aside from that, no one is questioning Roy’s coaching ability, his general value as a human being or the notion that reneging on a promise is generally a bad thing.
Saying that Williams and Roe engaged in similar behavior does not mean that I think Williams committed a “wrong”, either in 2001 or 2003. From the evidence I have seen, neither Roe nor Roy did anything “wrong”. They made a decision that was right for them and their family and one that disappointed some others.
By the way, I like the way you turned that around from a breach of the Kansas contingent to a breach of UNC, heels1fan. Pretty clever.
I am a little disappointed in Roy on this one. For this simple fact you can not keep calling Roe a great kid, then use his recruitment as the specific example of recruits lying on the recruiting trail. In all of our lives we have run across a person who may have done us wrong. But, b/c we have a great deal of respect for that person, we time to speak in generalizations about that person or situation that caused the problem. Some would call that the high road.
On the Rush recruitment the NCAA was on that case b/c of the relationship Rush had with a top Kansas booster. At the time many knowledgeable people openly questioned if Rush would ever suit up for Kansas due to the relationship with the booster in question. Roy may have seen the writing on the wall and just bailed on the kid to avoid the headache.