Update: Roy responded to the controversy during his call-in radio show last night. His defense? He did it for the parents who he thought should not have to listen to that sort of thing right behind them at a home game. And he ain’t apologizing even if he is wrong, which he implies he might be but he still is not apologizing.
“Am I disappointed in the whole thing? Yeah, I’m disappointed that it happened. I’m disappointed that I even reacted to it. But again, in our own building, I don’t think that parents ought to have to listen to somebody chastising their son. And whether that’s right or wrong, that’s the way I am. If it’s wrong, it’s wrong. I hate that it happened. I wish that it never happened. Evidently, people have been getting after us all day [on Monday] or getting after me all day. But I tell you what, if that’s the only thing they’ve got to get after me about, I’m a happy young man… If I’m wrong, then that’s good, but I’m not apologizing.”
Original post after the jump.
It is a “gate” right? I mean two or more days in the news cycle makes it a gate by law or something.
I am rather amazed at how much attention this has gotten. The comment traffic both here at THF and at Thee Sports Blog where I also wrote about the controversy have been through the roof. Not Duke game through the roof but a ton of traffic considering it was not even related to anything that actually happened on the court. As I alluded to in the last post, I have found various aspects of the media reaction humorous from the hand wringing over it to speculation as to how Mike Krzyzewski would be treated if he had done the same thing.
After having witnessed this horse beaten to a bloody pulp for three days I think I have finally arrived at what this was all about for Roy. As most folks know, Roy is big on loyalty. He is a loyal and sentimental fellow and in return he demands much the same from those around him. This extends to the fans of the Tar Heels, especially those who sit in Dean Dome seats on a regular basis. When that loyalty is not expressed then Roy gets a little irritated. Of late, this irritation has been expressed towards season ticket holders who opt not to attend some of the early season games but still show up for ranked opponents like Michigan St. This has pissed Roy off to no end to the point he mentions it every other game. The reason I bring this up is it is part and parcel to understanding why Roy reacted the way he did. On one hand, Roy may have been upset by the negative catcall but I find it hard to believe a coach who has been in this business going back to the late 1970s has not heard his share of opposing fans in his home arena doing what this guy did. No, what Brian King said was not at issue, it was the fact he was where he was. Setting aside whether he was supposed to be there or not, when Roy turned around and saw King standing 20 rows up in a seat a UNC fan should be occupying this running vendetta against UNC fans who have been less than fully committed(according to Roy) took over.
Now whether this particular focus of Roy’s is good or not is certainly up for debate. However, as it pertains to this incident, it was more about where this guy was sitting and the conclusion Roy reached when he saw an opposing fan sitting in a place where a UNC fan probably should have been. Examining that limited context then I do not find much fault with Roy’s position. In reality, there are plenty of passionate UNC fans out there who would dropped about anything to sit in those seats. In fact, there probably should never be an empty seat in the Dean Dome because there is an overabundance of UNC fans in the area. On top of that, there most certainly should not be an opposing fan in those seats. Yes, I know people have the right to do with their seats anything they want which might include bringing a fan of the opposing team. The ticket holders certainly pay enough money for their seats which grants them some leeway. That being said, I think there is also a responsibility to support the team in person and barring that, finding someone who can do it in your stead.
Did Roy handle it correctly? He did not. There are quieter ways to accomplish what he was attempting to do. It is also bad form for a hall of fame coach to engage a fan. Doing so elevates the latter and brings down the former. In this case, Roy looks like a monarch ordering someone tossed from the palace. This action is also fraught with all sorts of unintended consequences such as copy cats doing the same thing in future games and no telling what kinds of grief when the Heels go on the road, especially for Tar Heel fans who will probably have to really mind their p’s and q’s when traveling to support the team.
So, what’s done is done at this point. It was not the best reaction Roy could have had but Roy also enjoys immense latitude due in part to his success. Speaking of which, if any opposing fans tries to sell you on this idea that they would not want Roy, please call them a moron and a liar. Duke fans are probably the exception to this considering Mike Krzyzewski’s accomplishments. Anyone else is selling ocean front property in Arizona. Roy, despite his various quirks and personality flaws is still hands down the best coach in the game right now. You can call him wrong for this incident and others but at the end of the day, his teams and players get the job done on the court while not violating NCAA rules. Since that is the case I can live with moments like these so I can continue to enjoy moments like this.
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I love this website and the THF blogs and his followers make me laugh and think quite a bit. I have only posted two other times and I do not find the need to. I enjoy remaining in the background. But having said this I am a dyed in the wool Tarheel. Like I said I’m a Tarheel born and Tarheel bred and when I die a Tarheel dead. I spent two wonderful years at UNC and am proud to have had the chance to have attended that great institution. I do not find the need for any reason to critize our coach, period. Unless someone here can walk on water or outcoach Roy Willams then this matter is a non issue. If Roy wants the guy out and he did not have him thrown out I have no problem with it. We could have John Calipari as our coach who I’m not sure could spell loyal without coughing. Roy is loyal and I am loyal and I despise critics, back biting and second guessers. I do not think the THF is any or the former. As a matter of fact I think THF is a great guy. So lets all let this die and focus on what’s important our next game “Texas”. THF and all you loyal Tarheels have a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. May God bless you and keep you healthy and happy and safe in these difficult times.
Being somewhat older than the average blogger, it has taken me a while to find this site. I’ve been a fan of UNC basketball since attending college in upstate NY in the 60′s, and following the exploits of Dickie Grubar and Bill Buntin. During this fanship, I have only been able to see the Tar Heels twice: during the NCAA Regionals in 2005 and at last year’s ACC Tournament. One of my remaining goals in life is to see a game at The Dean Dome. So, if in the future some of the regular fans don’t feel like going to a game against a so-called inferior opponent, I might just be willing to take those tickets off their hands … and I promise to behave!
(By the way, the perceptive will note that in each of the two years that I saw the Heels in person, they went on to win the NCAA Championship. I’m not claiming to be a good luck charm, but on the other hand …)
here’s what’s been missing in all this flap:
since when do our players need opposing fans to heckle them into missing free throws? They can accomplish that all by themselves.
hohosanta,
FYI Tar Heel is 2 words, carry on.
Well said THF. One thing I haven’t seen mentioned though is that the question keeps coming up about how people would react if this had been K. The simple fact of the matter is we’ll never know because those seats nearest the court in Hansbrough Indoor Stadium are reserved for the crazies and will always be full of them. K has exactly the kind of supporters he wants in those seats and never has to worry about a fan being disruptive where his team is concerned. I’m not sure Roy would want anything akin to the crazies in these seats but we all know he wants Heels fans there. And as THF points out, that is the crux of this issue. It’s easy to see how Roy’s irritation at seeing a Presbyterian fan sitting in an empty section of seats right behind his bench where there should have been a sea of blue could spill over into what happened. For all his detractors though; put yourself in his shoes. What would you have done? Be honest with yourself. I don’t want to hear your answer, I’m just asking you to consider what happened and why. And then consider that if this were anyone but Roy or a handful of the thousands of coaches in this country then it’s a non issue.
At the end of the day there’s no one else I’d have as the coach of my team than Roy Williams.
Steve Kirschner: “It wasn’t anything to do with what the guy said,” Kirschner said. “It was the seats it was coming from. (Williams) thought the guy was sitting in seats that the basketball office issued tickets for. As it turns out, I don’t think they were.”
Unfortunately, apparently, Roy didn’t agree with Kirschner’s statement, emphasizing that it was indeed, what the guy said:
After the game, Williams said: “I just don’t think anybody should yell negative things toward our players who come in on our tickets to watch our games.”
USA Today
I feel sorry for Kirschner. He is getting a firsthand lesson in what Clinton and Bush’s press spokespeople went through.
Trying to parse this, I think maybe it means that if you come in on tickets provided to the opponent (I don’t even know how many there are, if any), then you are allowed to say negative things. Do they ever have general admission for these games?
I know one thing. When UNC officials (or anyone) says they just want to move on, it is a tacit admission that “mistakes were made.”
“I’m sure we all wish that none of that happened, period,” Kirschner said.
It still seems crazy to me that this issue of calling out fans for their support (or lack thereof) has become such a big issue.
I remember clearly that when UNC played Clemson back in the early 1980′s that a huge proportion of the fans at Kenan were wearing Orange. It didn’t particularly irk me. I remember thinking, “boy, these Clemson people are crazy.”
It also certainly was not the custom back then to wear Carolina blue to football or basketball games. People generally wore nice clothes like someone would wear on a dinner date, but seldom Carolina blue, except maybe for button-downs, many of which were pretty close to that color by happy coincidence. When Smith was coach, all J.V. players in the 1960′s were required to wear a dark blue blazer to games, and I think wearing Carolina Blue would have been considered comical or frivolous.
Honestly, I say live and let live. I am not painting my face Carolina Blue and I wouldn’t want my children to do so, but if someone else wants to, then so be it.
“…moments like this.”
I STILL tear up every time I watch that video.
william,
Don’t get your point, so now dress code is another item Roy doesn’t do as well as Dean or is this how Carolina fans are becoming imbeciles? Looks like you have a “holier than thou” attitude toward fans that do not follow your preferred dress code. You do realize the entertainment at the Dean Smith Center is basketball not the theater right?
Also, I think you are reading too much into quotes, how does Roy saying “our tickets” not mean tickets provided by the basketball office. First you compared Roy to Nixon, now Clinton and Bush when it comes to dealing with the press. I guess you’ll be comparing him to Ford the next time he has a fainting spell and knocks over a chair. And my assumption is your comparison for Dean Smith would be Gandhi or Mother Teresa.
99 percent of Roy Williams’ scheme comes from Dean Smith. While it can certainly be argued that Williams is a better game coach and recruiter, I don’t think anyone, anywhere would place Roy Williams in the same category as Dean Smith in terms of basketball innovation, in terms of strategy, tactics and popularization.
In terms of criticizing Smith, I definitely do not think he was perfect.
I think he receives excessive praise for integrating his team, when others in North Carolina such as Lefty Driesell at Davidson, and in the conference at Maryland were integrating before him. I think UNC should have integrated earlier than it did.
I also believe, and others on here vigorously disagree, that the team from 1957 was insufficiently honored during his tenure.
I also think and have stated here, that I believe that the success of the Four Corners was wildly overstated, something that Williams possibly believed as well.
With regard to the fashion comments, you are trying to be deliberately belligerent, SCl11, as I was simply indicating that there actually is not a right way to be a Carolina fan and that the fashion has changed over the years. You and any other fan can decide what you think is best. That is the meaning of the phrase, “live and let live,” which I guess you missed there at the end.
I don’t think the rampant homerism serves anyone. I thought Roy was wrong for what he said about Roe. I think this was even more wrong. And for those who keep harping about how he had a perfect right to do what he did, here is a short legal analysis some lawyer with more time than I did. It is a link from Carolina March, which links to this treatment of the legal issue:
“I’ve practiced law in North Carolina for 25 years, on both sides of the civil rights issues (represented governments for five years and citizens for twenty). I should say that I am politically about as far as you can get away from the ACLU, but government police power run amuck has always irked me. Despite your statement that “no court in the land is going to agree with your argument,” I have to point out that the Supreme Court already has — and it’s not my argument, but their own application of the first amendment.
It’s a clear violation of the fan’s right to free speech, and I’m not sure I even understand Tru’s confusion on the point. We have a government actor saying, in effect, “I am the judge and jury for what gets said in this building owned by the people of North Carolina. Unless I approve of your speech, I will have you removed.” I don’t see what’s so silly about a constitution that prevents that kind of hegemony. I wonder how loudly some bloggers would squeal if Roy were trying to censor web sites in the same way. Would the same folks speak of how “silly” it is to protect that internet speech about the same subject?
Roy has already admitted that he had the man removed based on the content of his speech. Any inquiry into why Roy didn’t like it is simply irrelevant. The Supreme Court simply makes no inquiry into what concerned the government actor. The relevant considerations are (1) was this a public forum (and it clearly is), and (2) was there viewpoint discrimination (and Roy answered that with a toothy grin in front of a television camera). Game over.
In point of fact, it would be difficult to come up with a better illustration of a context of where the right to free speech is more vigorously enforced than an arena where competing viewpoints are blatantly and constantly on display. To allow the cheerleaders to say, “Hit it, Deon,” but to forbid a fan from saying, “Don’t miss it, Deon,” is a textbook case of viewpoint discrimination. Could it be any simpler or more blatant? I would think even a first year law student could get that one right.
This reminds me of the University of Virginia rule that tried to do away with posters at college football games because they were calling for the coach’s head. That rule died an ignominious death even before litigation could be filed. And at Mr. Jefferson’s University, no less!
For those who really have an interest in the issue, here is some more analysis. Glen’s concern over what is printed on the ticket is misplaced for two reasons: (1) nothing on the ticket says you can be thrown out if your speech offends the coach, nor would it be enforceable if it did, because the constitutions of both North Carolina and the United States prohibit the state from requiring a citizen to give up fundamental rights as a condition of entry to a limited public forum unless issues of national security are involved; and, (2) the problem for Roy is that there is a tape clearly showing that the fan’s conduct is not “reasonably likely to incite a breach of the peace,” which is the NC standard. Not sure what Tru means by , “unruly,” I’m just sure you can’t throw him out unless it rises to the “breach of the peace” level just recited.
If the fan had yelled, “Miss it, you faggot, coked-up nig*er,” then said, “your momma is a crack whore, and she was good for me last night,” the language could have been deemed, “fighting words,” that were “reasonably likely to provoke a breach of the peace,” and the words and the conduct could be proscribed.
But there appears to be universal acceptance of the fact that the fan said, “Don’t miss it, Deon.” I don’t know of any NC lawyer who would even argue that such amounts to a breach of the peace with a straight face (or “unruly conduct,” whatever Tru means by that).
I would agree that there is much the Supreme Court has said that is indeed silly, but in my humble opinion it is not silly to keep a government actor from being able to remove you from a public forum unless you please him with your speech.”
This might be a stretch in that Roy might not have been able to tell this about King, but I don’t expect him to show any tolerance for a drunk person, especially considering his take on drinking and his father’s issues.
Roy seems definitely perturbed with the fan base this year. It might just be me, but it seems like the excitement around basketball season in the Triangle is a bit lower than normal.
“Roy has already admitted that he had the man removed based on the content of his speech”
That is the point you continue to misconstrue, Roy had issues with him saying that from seats that he thought the basketball office provided. The guy was not in a seat he paid for, so in the context of your long winded free speech argument, if you agree this guy is justified then basically you also agree that someone can trespass or break into another individual’s property as long as it was in accordance with promoting free speech. The jackass was sitting in a section that his ticket did not provide him admission to, and if the idiot wanted to sit in a seat he was unauthorized to sit in for the duration of the game then maybe he should not have voiced his 1st amendment rights and drawn attention to himself.
Like I said before, there are certain criteria that has to be met in order for me to support a coach recommending a fan be tossed. One was drunkeness. Another is racial slurs, and 3rd is disruptiveness to those around. I think this gentleman met the criteria required.
I don’t know how I want to articulate this, but I have seen what can happen to this program with sub-par coaching or recruiting. It was not that long ago folks. Bring in Roy, 2 national championships later, and we are flaming Roy for this one incident. William, I agree with all of your points, and that definately needs to be taken into accont. No need to censor a paying customer (ticket holder) for mere verbal booing. I also appreciate your support for me during the evaluation of recruits a few threads (weeks) ago. Roy Williams is, like everyone else, not God, and thus, subject to being crotiqued. WITH THAT BEING SAID, I do want UNC to be a supportive and comfortable place for Roy. Why? Because we DO have an alternative, as we have seen in the early 2000′s, that would make us all wishing for a coach/recruiter like we have now in Roy.
So my position, in short, is to support and defend Roy (especially when dealing with other fanbased and schools). If I ever had an opportunity to talk with HIM personally, I might would sandwich this between all my praise. “You know Roy, there might have been a better way to have delt with this situation. We really have to pick our battles, because there may be a much more appropriate occasion arise in which You will have to address a fan, and now, I feel we have exhausted that opportunity, and ejecting a fan going forward will be a much harder task, even if it is much more warranted. This also gives credence to opposing fan bases and their demeaning antics towards our players, in other words, this may fuel their fire.”
I might would say something along those lines. BUT PLEASE fans, when you are dealing with the Dukes and the States of the world, take it easy on Roy when talking with them, and continue your staunch support.
Thanks for my rant, folks!
In fact, the latest stuff I have seen indicates that this fellow did indeed have a ticket.
It also is clear from the video that the security people never even requested to see a ticket before removing him. They certainly have a right to remove someone sitting in a seat they don’t have a ticket for, but they do need to at least check the ticket to know that, or did these security personnel have ESP or something?
What Williams will do, if he is smart, is he will apologize to the guy. We all have done things that in retrospect, sometimes immediately, we wish we had not done. It is very possible that it was security that actually was much more at fault here than Williams, with respect to the guy actually being removed.
If Williams apologizes and gives the guy two tickets to the Duke game, he can turn this whole thing around.
And C.Bowling I appreciate that. There were a few things that annoyed me that people wrote about this. I do think that I have somewhat of an informed viewpoint because I deal with situations like this in my line of work. I know that people are often accused of being “drunk” or “uncooperative” and sometimes they are.
But these are also often code words for “the guy just pissed me off, so I arrested/ejected him.”
From my viewing of the video, the fan voluntarily walks over to the security personnel, where one of them, instead of asking to see his ticket, immediately grabs his shirt. A second officer approaches from the other side of the aisle and also puts his hands on the fan, followed by a third officer as they tug him away.
Legally, an officer has no right to touch a citizen, at all, until the officer has probable cause to do so. I think all three of these officers may be liable for assault, although Roy himself would not be. I certainly see nothing on the video that would authorize the officers to touch, grab and pull the fan out of the building.
Because of these officers’ failure to follow protocol, they may have indeed put UNC in a situation where it can be sued. Merely requesting someone to leave does not require touching, grabbing, pulling or tugging them, but only a simple escort out of the building.
I also tire of hearing that UNC can do whatever they want because it is their building, or because the game is a private function. Maybe people want to believe that is how things should work and what the law should say. That simply is not correct, though, in terms of First Amendment law. The ironic thing here is that Roy actually is the one being ever bit as disorderly by yelling from the court at the fan.
If the yelling is the reason for the ejection, then perhaps Roy should have been ejected as well.
I think the SI article about Roy from 1997 was one of the most touching and moving articles that I have ever read about a sports personality, Even though Roy was a UNC grad, I really didn’t know that much about him, except about the calendars and him being an assistant coach at UNC for a very short time. After reading that article, I became a huge fan, to the point where I sort of felt disloyal to Dean Smith.
Roy finally has all the success he ever deserved. He certainly has some leeway but I doubt many believe this served his cause in any way. I will try to refrain from too much pop psychological analysis, but people do go through different passages in life and for some people people, it is difficult when they realize they are no longer the underdog, so they may try to fashion artificial windmills to joust against.
He just has to realize that people who don’t show up for games are not out to hurt the UNC program. Many of them are giving plenty of money to fund education and other services at the university and they all love the Tar Heels.
I definitely hope this episode was due to stress, pain and medication. I find this to be a very sad and troubling incident, and one, that apart from Roy, reflects very poorly on our University, which has generally prided itself on being a shining beacon of liberal values (in the liberal arts sense) for the entire South.
Great write up THF, I agree completely.
I am so glad that Roy addressed this so we can move on to thinking about Texas on Saturday. You know, the actual game?
Yes, although unfortunately this incident is sure to overshadow the game to some extent and we can expect to hear about this the entire season, especially if there is a lawsuit.
It is amazing to me that the Smith Center apparently has no standard protocol for dealing with such incidents or that the security personnel seemed to have ignored it. People will complain if the fellow sues and all of this could have been avoided if the officers had just kept their hands off of him. He is very fortunate that everything was recorded, including Williams’ screaming at him from the court.
“It also is clear from the video that the security people never even requested to see a ticket before removing him. They certainly have a right to remove someone sitting in a seat they don’t have a ticket for, but they do need to at least check the ticket to know that, or did these security personnel have ESP or something?”
If someone is disruptive or if a security official needs to speak with them, they remove them from the section and take them to the concourse to discuss the matter, you don’t address those issues in the middle of the section in front of other paid ticket holders who are trying to watch the game in a undisruptive manner. That’s where all “can I see your ticket” questions are addressed. Additionally, you only see in the video when the officers approach the 1st amendment victim, you do not know if the guy was previously approached by an usher who asked to see a ticket.
“From my viewing of the video, the fan voluntarily walks over to the security personnel, where one of them, instead of asking to see his ticket, immediately grabs his shirt. A second officer approaches from the other side of the aisle and also puts his hands on the fan, followed by a third officer as they tug him away.”
Evidently we have a different view point, I see a man standing in the middle of the section hold his hands up like “What did I do?” and not exiting the section as requested by the officer. Actually, at one point the victim pulls away from the officer until the other officer approaches from behind.
Hey, but again I wasn’t there, but I’ll concede to your take on the situation (even though you weren’t there either) that this guy was just some Angel trying to voice his 1st amendment rights from a ticketed seat he purchased with his hard earned money from Stubhub.
I am going to have to agree with William on this one. I think this was as much about the empty seats as it was about the fan. I think that the police over reacted and should have never touched him. What I find most disturbing about the incident are Kirschner’s unfounded accusations afterwards. I think that Deon is the only one that acted appropriately; he made the shot.
On to the Texas game!!!!!!
He didn’t throw a chair or toss a fan into a trashcan, but some of this does resemble Bobby Knight. Some fans have questioned whether Williams should have been hit with a technical for screaming at the fan. I don’t know if there is precedent for that or not.
I hope that we are not the kind of fans that many of the Hoosier fans were, willing to whitewash any sort of behavior because Roy, like Bobby Knight at the time, is the foremost coach of the day. We aren’t there yet, but many of the comments here and elsewhere are explicit denunciations of anyone who questions anything done by UNC or by Roy Williams.
It does concern me, somewhat, that as a role model for our athletes, Roy seems to be saying that regardless of whether what he did was right or wrong, that he will not be apologizing.
But didn’t many of us believe that either Coach K or Gerald Henderson should have apologized for the wanton hit on Hansbrough? I certainly believed that Makktar owed an apology to the Utah player that he slandered.
“I hate that it happened. I wish that it never happened. Evidently, people have been getting after us all day [on Monday] or getting after me all day. But I tell you what, if that’s the only thing they’ve got to get after me about, I’m a happy young man… If I’m wrong, then that’s good, but I’m not apologizing.”
So, Roy addresses an opposing fan that yells at one of his players on the free throw line and then asks security to check the guy out to make sure that he is sitting in the appropriate seat or behaves a little less disruptively, and now he is the second coming of Bobby Knight? Plus, this situation is comparative to Henderson rearranging Hansbrough’s face and Makhter lying about a racial slur. Really?
Should we be made aware of any prescriptive medications you are taking while you post these comments?
You are absolutely correct sc|11. Between being fired up, the Vicodin (I had major back surgery three weeks ago) and 1 hour of sleep out of 24, I did not think straight. Plus, I am an old fart. But for some reason my brain still wants it to be TARHEEL and not Tar Heel. I guess it looks more aggressive in narcotic world. LOL! Don’t worry I probably will never post again anyway.
But thanks for pointing that out.:)
Scl11, I am simply not going to respond to your comments anymore. They are out of line with the rules of the site.
There are plenty of people on here who enjoy good natured give and take and generally know how to do it without getting personal or engaging in name calling or resorting to ad hominem attacks. Everyone on here gets upset from time to time about different issues, but seldom have I seen anyone behave on here as you currently are, so you will have to find someone else to engage with you, because I am not playing.
Rules of the site? So comparing Roy’s action to those of Bobby Knight, Gerald Henderson, and Makther Ndiaye are within the rules, but questioning if you are taking some type of medication that causes you to jump to those conclusions is out of bounds?
Lighten up bud, evidently you are someone who is always right and does not believe there can be an alternative view or opinion that differs from your own.
Looking at all the negative media going around, I wonder if maybe this will actually help the Tar Heels unite and come out on fire for the game against Texas. Maybe it will end up being a positive in that sense. It definitely will be interesting to see how the team comes out.
FYI… Friday marks the 1-year Anniversary of Hansbrough becoming the all-time leading scorer at UNC.
My God in heaven. If this keeps up much longer, my eyes are going to bleed. This SHOULD BE a non-issue. I don’t know why it’s continued.
I will be the first to say that I’m a heckler. I’m a fixture in the bleachers at Camden Yards where I regularly torment opposing centerfielders. That said, I’ve visited plenty of foreign venues and generally keep my mouth shut because I KNOW that if the proverbial poo hits the fan, I’M the one that will be on the hook and will get tossed out. Does it suck? Yes. But it’s a fact of life and one I deal with. I HAVE been kicked out before I didn’t begrudge the Washington Nationals for taking offense to my assertion that Adam Dunn sucks. (Even though he does).
I guess my point is: IT HAPPENS. Everywhere. This one got caught on camera, in a blowout, so it’s getting blown out of proportion. I will agree that if the fans were filled with Heels fans, this wouldn’t be an issue.
William, we get it. There’s no “correct” way to cheer. I agree. That said, you can’t blow off the “Why weren’t more Heels fans there?” argument. You yourself said this program BELONGS to the state. So while the rich alumni may have PAID for the tickets and the right to attend, that doesn’t mean they don’t have a MORAL imperative to turn in those tickets or re-sell them or SOMETHING so that other fans can enjoy. Also, this is completely different than the Redskins situation and considering I’ve had to read that story in the local news EVERY DAY for three months, I can attest to that. Roy got a little testy with one person. He didn’t have the security goons sweeping through the stands to kick out ANYONE who was negative.
Bottomline. This has to end. It’s stupid and it’s over. If nothing else, it’s a learning lesson. let’s just drop it and focus on trying to beat the second best team in the country.
I have been following him and Lawson pretty closely in the box scores and I think they are both outperforming expectations so far and hopefully will continue to get better. It has been a while since we have had a new Tar Heel star in the NBa.
Dear god, can we all get over it now? Has no one in here every been in a competitive situation where our emotions got the best of us. He said he wished it never happened, it’s over.
Thank god we have a coach with such a competitve fire, whether playing for an NCAA title or an exam time cupcake.
Uncle – I give already, please let this stop. There’s about 20 seconds worth of real content in this and it’s clear that everyone at UNC regrets the action. I sat next to a guy that was loud and out of control at the MSU game but the Heels took care of that in short order. He didn’t know much about basketball and was there for an easy win, in his mind I guess, since he left with 54 seconds left. I still can’t get over it, even the people around me were confused when he got up and left given that MSU could have come back in that game.
I also have to support william in this matter, I think his perspective is pretty much correct. I would like us to have higher standards than the other schools. I can’t read all the arguments on this posting since about 15% looks like Roy discussion and the remaining discussion is about the content found in posts that we the readers have made.
Finally I could see this being positive for the team in that their coach is taking a stand, putting the players first and then refusing to bow to the media. It’s a pretty ridiculous discussion and there’d be nothing to it if there wasn’t a banner hanging from the ceiling. The higher you fly the closer you are to the Sun.
Go Heels!
There are rules? News to me.
scl11, this is one fight you won’t win man. Those who assume all are wrong if they don’t agree with their opinions will not listen to the views of others. I do take it a bit personal when our coach is compared to the likes of a Bobby Knight that habitually verbally and physically abused players, officials, and fans alike. I take it personally because this is my team and Roy is the coach of my team. There has never been any documented abuse of any person, player or fan, to warrant being even considered in the same way as BK.
While william makes some good points I think he paints with a very broad brush in this respect. If that is his opinion, well and good, he is entitled to it. There have been more posts supporting Roy here than there have been castigating him.
And there is yet to be anyone anywhere that I have read say “I was there, this is what the guy said, this is what Roy said”. There is no evidence that Roy had anyone removed. The evidence shown only says that Roy got into a conversation with a fan that in hindsight would have been better left to security.
And william, to use your earlier analogy of the posters here as your jurists; you too sir have an opinion based on what is less than complete fact. In that respect one opinion is no better than the other.
I am all for UNC looking at creative ways of making their product more available and keeping the place full, DSchwind. I just think it is tough sledding by criticizing people who are obviously fans. Does calling grown adults out for not going to games ever work? UNC is at a peak and if it is tough to fill the place up now for the weaker games, well, I don’t know if the current approach is the one to take. It is one of the bigger arenas in the country.
I have been a lifelong Redskins fan going back to when they were the team of NC and SC, and now living here and it is bewildering to realize that basically the Redskins have been horrible since 1993, with the exception of three ten win seasons.
Obviously, the Redskins and Orioles(and Nationals, to a lesser extent) have made some huge mistakes both on the field and in the realm of marketing that make all of this stuff by UNC pale. I think there are Redskins fans who are simply saying, “enough–I have had it.” The fall-off in the Orioles’ attendance, even before the Nationals arrived is staggering.
The Ravens seem to be the only local team that actually seems to be giving its fans what they want, both in terms of game-day experience and in terms of being a winning franchise the last decade. But the experience of the Orioles in essentially going from the highest drawing franchise to essentially an also-ran in terms of attendance and winning, shows that such attributes can be lost relatively quickly.
In terms of discussion, people can look back to the big outburst after UNC lost to Wake last year. THF wrote a long article about the live posts and about what is generally appropriate conduct. This also came up about 2 years ago with a guy who kept saying that Roy was and idiot if he didn’t use a zone defense and then insulted THF and I believe he was excluded.
If it is not formal, I will say this. I will attempt to argue what I believe forcefully but I will also attempt not to demean the opinion of others by calling them names, or engaging in ad hominem attacks. I am sure many of us step over the line at times, but I believe that facts ultimately carry the day. Asking someone if they have taken their medication or saying, “only a jackass could believe such a thing,” is a waste of time, although looking at the original blog from the Fayetteville paper about the incident , it is clear that about 90 percent of the comments from purported UNC fans fit into those two categories.
If this instead becomes predominantly a site like SFN where the bias and homerism reach ridiculous proportions, I will miss the interaction and knowledge that many have here, but I guess that is the way it goes.
I do not think, however, that saying something resembles something else, is the same as saying “Roy is as bad as Bobby Knight.” Of course, no one ever said anything about Roy putting his hands on people. The reference was instead to his attitude which seemed completely unconcerned with the opinon of others–something Knight was renown for.
It is completely unfair to take someone’s comment and then miscontrue it. This was some of the same sort of thing that was done against J.Bowling where people were taking incredibly liberties and completely misconstruing things that were being said about the incoming freshmen. In effect, he was being castigated (and I brought it up too) for even raising the topic.