Well, what can you say? Yes, there was some fight and toughness on display in the 2nd half, especially from Will Graves who played the best basketball he has ever played as a Tar Heel. Twenty four points from Graves, 22 of which came in the 2nd half was simply not enough to yank the Heels from yet another huge hole dug via turnovers and sloppy offensive execution not to mention a defense that just plain sucks at times.
And that is what it comes down to. When you consider that UNC went from down 19 with 18:52 left in the game to a two point lead with just under two minutes left that means UNC was 21 points better that Georgia Tech for most of the 2nd half. The problem is the same one UNC had versus Kentucky, Texas, Syracuse in the 2nd half and Clemson for that matter. This team gets completely shell shocked to start the game and for some reason treat the first half of the game like I usually treated a paper in college due a week down the road. It is almost like they procrastinate out there then collectively say, “oh crap” before playing with a sense of urgency. And while the comeback was impressive in my opinion it was only impressive in that it was the only time all day they looked like a Tar Heel basketball team. UNC teams are famous for their comebacks at home, so that have that much going for them.
Then again, what are you going to do? They are Tar Heels and for all of their faults it is not like any of us are going anywhere nor should we. Sure there are things we want to see changed and our opinions are running fairly hot on whether Marcus Ginyard should see the court again or why Dexter Strickland was not on the court late in this game. I don’t have answers for any of those issue. I do know that despite all this I am choosing to hang in there in high hopes that the Will Graves who showed up in the 2nd half of this game will keep showing up. That some time very soon, Roy Williams finds the combination of players that works or the poor play just stops. Maybe it will, maybe it won’t but regardless I know my place is right there backing this team as I have countless seasons before.
One quick note on the end of game sequence which UNC took seven seconds to get a foul. The delay has drawn the ire of fans as well as incorrect analysis from folks on ESPN blaming poor execution on the players. The impression is given that UNC players did not move to foul after Larry Drew’s missed layup with ten seconds left. That is completely wrong. If you watch the replay, Graves and one of the Wears is making an effort to foul Shumpert in the corner but both them were screened by two Yellow Jacket players. By the time they fought past the screens, Shumpert kicked the ball out to D’Andre Bell who was then fouled. Just because it took seven seconds to get the foul does not mean UNC players were stupid. Sometimes the breaks are against you and in this case two perfectly set screens delayed the initial foul and bought the Jackets more time.
In short, on top of the real mistakes the Heels made today, you get crap like this making the job even tougher.
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Plain and simple, we won’t be winning any more games if the starting backcourt only scores 4 points. We go as Drew goes.
Call me crazy, though, but I still feel like we’re going to see a different team come March.
Let’s just hope it’s not in the NIT.
Success the rest of the season will depend on Drew and Graves period.
THF, I have not watched the final seconds of the game again, but what I recall is 2 players trying to double team Shumpert and not attempting to foul until he passes the ball to Bell on the sideline. Again, I haven’t seen the replay, but if “two perfectly set screens delayed the initial foul” then it still leads to the question of post game knowledge and savy. If you are trying to foul and the opponent sets “the perfect screen” run through the screen and plow the screener over, who cares how you get the foul as long as you stop the clock and send the opponent to the free throw line. “Fighting through screens” to avoid a foul while you are trying to commit a foul is just asinine.
There were two GT players in front of Shumpert…Graves and Wear were both trying to get to Shumpert for the trap which would have led to a foul and Shumpert used the screens. You can’t just foul someone in that situation or else the refs might call an intentional. I pointed it out because a lot of people are acting as though UNC was just plain stupid there and I am not sure that is the case. Yes, this team is prone to some incredible lack of poise as well as low basketball IQ at times but I do not think this was one of them.
I know that it is very difficult right now to see the positives, and pointing them out is kinda like being in a grocery store that is being shut down for demolition and you say “oh wow, they’ve got a special on (insert product here).” Point is, no one is there to hear it, and no one really cares because they are probably going to Wal-Mart or Cosco, or some other megachain down the road.
The store that is to be demolished is the over-inflated expectations that we all have, and to some degree, still cling to, for this team.
When the pre-season polls had us in the top-five, I knew that it was an outreach to Roy…a way of saying “you’re at the top of your game, and we’ll ‘reward’ you by NOT making the same mistake we made back in 2005.”
12-6 at this point is hard to swallow, but honestly, with the players that are taking the court, and the abundance of youth, the record isn’t that bad. Again, there is the issue of unrealistic expectations.
Also, there is something from Roy’s book that really bothers me. There are a few sentences where he talks about a conversation between he and Steve Robinson, regarding how most local fans seemed so scaled back in their showing of their appreication for the team winning it all. I hope that is/was not the case. There seems to be too much of a return to the 1980s period when the fans simply expected 25-plus wins and a Sweet 16/Elite Eight run every year. Dean famously said, “maybe we need an 8-20 year for people to appreciate what we have.”
Maybe we need a year like this to fully appreciate what we have.
It just kills me that Ginyard sucks. He’s a great team player, good attitude, senior, specialty is defense. And i think thats why Roy gives him so many chances. And you have to consider what would it do to the team over the long haul to have its senior leaders denigrated by being benched. It would be easier to bench him for lack of effort, or attitude or something. But when its a collapse of confidence and just lack of ability….its like kicking the guy when he’s down. Roy is a loyal guy, even to a fault. I’m sure it must be killing him too. But it looks like it has to happen. Maybe today was his last chance.
I was watching the State game, and then ESPN finally switched to the Heels and it was like an exact repeat. That showed me the problem – neither team has a “go to” guy who says this is my team and gets everyone on the same page. Javi Gonzales is baffling. He is a floor leader and clutch player one game, and then disappears for weeks. Lowe was very negative in the postgame remarks, which is rare for any coach to be down on a player publicly. Anyhow, the Heels don’t have the “floor general” either and were in a 20 point hole almost from the beginning. No one to unite everyone and get them on the same page. A rudderless team. Graves and Wood are both streaky and can carry their team for stretches, but they’re also streaky and can brick their team out of the game in stretches, like any shooters. Neither team has that absolute must-score guy like Felton or Lawson who will answer when the team absolutely needs a basket. Strickland looks like he could be that guy – in a year or so, when he has more ACC experience.
It’s like mirror images – neither team has a guard who can consistently penetrate, and also be a scoring threat on the drive. Both teams have drive-and-dish guards, but no one big enough to emphatically score. I thought Ginyard would do that more for the Heels this year. Graves is not that guy, he has to spot up for a shot.
This may well be a chemistry issue as much as talent. These guys don’t and haven’t appeared to enjoy playing together all year. Maybe someone can shed some light on this. Their body language and demeanor remind me of some recent NC State squads. I say more dancin’ less posin’. Have some fun boys, it’s college!!
THF, don’t fret too much about the the espn overhype machine. Their analysis is often shallow and uninformed and out of context as thay only see bits and pieces. It’s what their audience wants to hear. The real interested parties ( us and Vegas) know the situation. Besides, it makes it sweeter when we are redeemed. There is a bright side in there somewhere. Kids always surprise, whether thay are playa’s or otherwise.
“You can’t just foul someone in that situation or else the refs might call an intentional.”
Not just might, they should call it intentional. Give credit to GT, for once they made a really smart play at the end of a game. As hot as Will Graves was, those 7 second probably saved the game for them.
ESPN guys called McDonald’s foul “silly” at the end of the first half. They couldn’t stop talking about freshmen mistakes until Drew fouled and they realized GT wasn’t in the bonus and then they went silent about it.
Marcus is struggling and it couldn’t hurt this team any more. I thought we were so lucky to have him coming back this year but it just isn’t working out. I really feel bad for him (and the team).
My wife missed the Clemson game and at the end of yesterday’s first half I told her she just saw the replay…. The second half was really encouraging. We know they can play, so I think it’s more of getting the right mindset and the right players on the court. BTW, one of Graves last three pointers had to of been from 30 feet. Seeing Roy’s reaction was surprising…I figured he pull him for taking a bad shot. So maybe Coach is figuring these guys out a bit?
And as jfuhuang said, I really expect to see a different team show up in a few weeks. Why/how? I’ll leave that to Roy and the basketball gods.
And THF, I don’t see any Carolina fans going anywhere, what would we do, pull for dook (talk about throwing up in your mouth a little bit)?
Graves value as we go forward will be as a sorely needed team leader, not as a 3 point bail-out specialist imo. mr83-you make a great point about chemistry & body language—Graves & Thompson have the “look” thing going on–hopefully Graves attitude, mean streak & confidence will start spreading to the guys who sorely need it. Graves has that “street-ball” confidence & competitiveness that many seem to lack as william hinted at previously. The criticisms have mostly been about lack of effort, smarts, fumbling, execution etc, but I see a team with fragile self-confidence & plenty of tentative self-doubt, that’s no doubt being fueled by an anxious & largely unrealistic fan-base. Besides his hot 3 point shooting, Will Graves was showing great leadership yesterday by just “playing ball”.
With the colts and saints wins yesterday the strategy of resting your starters seems to have legs. Many teams physically over-practice and over-condition. They under-practice mentally. It is why we see so many overuse injuries like stress fractures. They could use the time to diagram some inbounds plays or discuss end of game situations. So don’t worry about Deon or Marcus if they get benched as they should. Just tell them we are resting them so they will be able to help us later in the season.
To add on to 52bgj’s point, I found this quote by Graves interesting…
“‘Where is that grit for 40 minutes. It seems like we don’t see it very often except when you guys get down (on the scoreboard).’
‘I think we are looking for the same thing. I try to bring it for 40 minutes, and some of us try to bring it for 40 minutes, but it has to be a team effort and it is just a matter of growing. I don’t like losing, but I feel like getting hit in the mouth is kind of good for us right now, being that it is early and we should bounce back quickly.’”
At least he (they?) recognize the problem. Recognizing that there is a problem doesn’t necessarily mean it will be fixed, but it is the first step.
That’s a chemistry issue. Calling out your boys in the press is bush league. Transfers could happen.
“Calling out your boys in the press is bush league.”
no argument there.
“Transfers could happen.”
and if we’re calling Spades, that is the baby’s way out, and most often doesn’t work out for that reason.
Especially if your butt sat out last season for being a thug. Graves, unfortunately, can’t be THE leader due to credibility issues. He can be, and has been, an inspiration. Best to keep your mouth shut and let your play continue to do the talkin, playa. You remain a pleasant surprise in a frustrating year.
well, if you listened to the pg, it wasn’t a call-out at all. I can see how reading it it may sound like it.
Sorry, maybe I was too harsh. Have espn tendencies to jump to conclusions.
Thompson and Drew were saying the same general thing, and Graves wasn’t singling anyone out specifically, so I don’t see much a problem with what he was saying.
This transfer talk is baseless. There has not been a whisper of it before yesterday’s loss and to fabricate the possibility because of two losses in a row is the ultimate in knee-jerk. Roy Williams has run very deep teams for a very long time and has had very few transfers, if any, because of playing time. He doesn’t promise PT, the recruits know this coming in.
Ok, ok, ok. I will write ” I will not talk about transfers” a hundred times. Howeva, dog, if it happens, I will remind you.
There’s no problem with what Will said. Its true, and his teammates need to hear it. The 2nd half last night, the near comeback against Kentucky, the first half against Texas… all proof that this team is capable of being very good, when they are focused and poised and hussling. Thats what irritates me the most. The talent is there. The ability is there. The effort isn’t – or at least not for more then 20 minutes a game. Thankfully/theoretically that is something that can be fixed. But when?
“Howeva, dog, if it happens, I will remind you.”
and rest assured, if it doesn’t, I will remind you, and the handful of others who rolled this tripe out.
“Especially if your butt sat out last season for being a thug. Graves, unfortunately, can’t be THE leader due to credibility issues.”
Gilbert Arenas is a thug, Will Graves broke a team rule. That being said, his staying with the team even after the suspension, and continuing to push himself despite terrible start to the season in some ways makes him the most credible leader.
Money talks, bs walks. Still should not run your mouth to make yourself look better. No “I” in “team”. But as MJ pointed out, there is an “I” in “win”. Calipari pays better.
“Howeva, dog, if it happens, I will remind you.”
If it happens, UNC will just replace someone who didn’t want to be a part of the team with Harrison Barnes and Reggie Bullock.
Don’t mistake choice of staying with no other choice. What was he going to do? Do you know what rule he broke? Being on this team is a privledge not an obligation. I think he is inspiring. Its a redemption story and I love him for it. Others may have quit but he did not. Its what makes sports great.
I think Graves sticking it out last year has a lot of positive things to say for him. Agreed with C. Micheal/UNC RAJ/52bgJ … I share their opinions as stated above.
I don’t think Will was trying to make himself look better, I think he was sharing his recent experience. He hasn’t always given 100%, and he now sees that Coach knows what he is talking about when he asks for 40 minutes of hard nosed basketball.
A thug is someone who thinks only of himself, with no thought of the consequences of their actions on others. It is a pop culture term. We are all thugs at times. It just isn’t as public as is the case with celebrity. Comes with the territory. No one is any better or worse than anyone else in this regard. There are degrees of social acceptance, however.
Ginyard and Thompson must be heart broken right now. I hate to see things turning out the way they are for each. Both are good kids.
I can go along with Ginyard for now, but this team needs Thompson on the floor.
This team also really needs Ed Davis to become the 15 to 20 ppg and 10 rebound per game player he was expected to become.
I think John Henson could be an extreme positive if he were to get more minutes. If you put him on most inbounds passes he could intercept atleast half of them. I know most of you think he is a disappointment but he does not get any playing time. You can’t get much praise if you are not playing. He also has a smile that is contagious.
“This team also really needs Ed Davis to become the 15 to 20 ppg and 10 rebound per game player he was expected to become.”
Agreed, although I think “return to” might be more correct than “become” is. For the season Ed is averaging 14.7 ppg and 9.8 rpg, and in the 7 games prior to the Clemson game he was averaging 18.3 ppg and 11.3 rpg. Regardless of what you want to call it, UNC definitely need more of that than the 8 ppg and 6 rpg he has put up the last two games, though some of that drop off does fall on the guards.
““You can’t just foul someone in that situation or else the refs might call an intentional.”
Not just might, they should call it intentional. ”
That is pretty nieve there fellas, all fouls at that point of the game are intentional. How is running through a screen different than bear hugging a player with the ball? So the next time a player runs through a screen we should expect the officials to call an intentional foul?
“Ginyard and Thompson must be heart broken right now. I hate to see things turning out the way they are for each. Both are good kids.”
And awful basketball players and leaders for 5 and 4 year players. No one is questioning what nice guys or good citizens Ginyard and Thompson are, but this isn’t Little League where everyone gets to play just because they are on the team. Either produce or sit, they have been given every opportunity to prove their value for 4 to 5 seasons, now it is time to give the younger more talented guys that same opportunity.
unc steph
Henson and Ginyard pose a problem for the team on offense. When they are in the game, neither poses a real threat and that makes it very easy for defense to double inside players.
The inside guys do not do well in this situation this year.
Significant problem.
“I think John Henson could be an extreme positive if he were to get more minutes. If you put him on most inbounds passes he could intercept atleast half of them. I know most of you think he is a disappointment but he does not get any playing time. You can’t get much praise if you are not playing. He also has a smile that is contagious.”
Agree and that is what I don’t get. Here is a kid who has an enormous upside, but he barely sees the floor. But Marcus Ginyard, who has evidently reached his full potential, is allowed to play 27 minutes while he contributes 2pts, 1rb, 1 assist, and 2 TO. So what does this communicate to a player like Henson who is afraid to make mistakes when he is rationed a few minutes each half, “hey maybe if I can be invisable like Marcus coach will play me more” ?
i saw the end of the game a second time, and it was just one of those things. they were at least ten feet away and the traffic, more than screens, as GT players deliberately got in the way, made it tough to figure out which way Shumpert might go.
its as regrettable as when two heels aggressively went after a ball with a GT player on the baseline, and GT guy miraculously shoots a pass under the basket for an unguarded dunk.
both those being totally different from hitting Will with a pass from 2 feet away, Larry.
Strickland went out at 13 minutes plus, and i was looking at the play by play on tarheelblue and i didnt see anything that would warrant not putting him in again.
McDonald came in, but not Strickland. Ginyard went in, but not Strickland.
Drew played the rest of the way and he did 4 of his assists in that last 13 minutes, but why not play him AND Dexter? i wish someone had asked Roy what was going on. maybe it was just some sort of who’s hot/i want seniors thing.
“How is running through a screen different than bear hugging a player with the ball? So the next time a player runs through a screen we should expect the officials to call an intentional foul?”
You answered your first question yourself. One player has the ball, the other does not. Look at the definition of an intentional foul:
“When a player makes physical contact with another player with no reasonable effort to steal the ball. It is a judgment call for the officials.”
Your second question is answered by the last sentence in the definition: judgment call. A player running through a screen with 10 minutes to go in the first half is not intentionally fouling, a player running through a screen with 8 seconds to go is. This is why you can’t just foul any player after an inbounds pass.
Now I have already expressed my opinion on the game thread, I forgot to mention one thing: fouls. GT fouled up EVERY FRICKIN’ TIME we went up for a shot and the refs only called about a third of them. They also called about eight awful fouls on us, I’m not blaming the refs, but the game would have been a lot different if there were some different calls.
Continue to start Ginyard but give Henson more minutes. I do see some brilliance in him even if no one else does except SCl11.
^i am one of the first to jump on poor officiating, and while i agree there were some bad calls (hello, Mike Wood), i generally can’t even address them if my team is playing even worse.
refs are not going to give you squat if you are playing as bad as we did in the first.
I really want Henson to get comfortable and play more minutes, but he hasn’t been very convincing making his case for more time. Maybe playing more will help, but 3 turnovers and no rebounds in 9 minutes worries me some. I think he will, at some point in time, become a big factor for us. I’m ready to see some of the talent that he showed in HS.
The coaches are there to make decisions about playing time. They have made plenty of great decisions over time. Clearly this team is hard for anyone to figure out.
Give Graves his due for playing better the last few games. Especially for trying. I don’t care if they win or lose: weak effort is maddening though.
Referees don’t decide games. I was really upset last year when they let opposing inside players hit Hansbrough in the head many times. That was extremely dangerous. It could have been easily stopped by a few player disqualifications. It continued all season. I hope he doesn’t have a long term serious problem from it. Most importantly the referees are responsible for safe play. If a game is close, more scrutiny is given to their calls. So play better.
^referees dont usually decide games, but they certainly CAN.
thats all i’ll say about that today.
The referees didn’t make UNC commit 7 turnovers in the first 9 minutes of the game yesterday. Thats what lost the game for them. Not the refs, not the foul situation in the final 7 seconds, not anything else. We just can’t be careless, sloppy and stupid for 10, 15 or 20 minute stretches and expect to win. That is the big problem that needs to go away in order for us to be as good as we could (and should) be.
^yup.
referees really tend to reward aggressive play, and throwing the ball away or having it taken away isnt going to get you a whistle.
in the 2nd half, Dionne got hit on a layup. unfortunately, he had just missed a layup from point blank range. MAKE the 1 ft shot and you dont have to be pissed you didnt get a call on the putback. putback attempt, i should say.
Dumb turnovers and giving away offensive rebounds seem areas that can be improved by more coaching and learning by players. I don’t think you will see the Wears out of position much on block outs. Maybe they don’t have the strength or quickness of a Booker, but they are paying attention.
If they don’t block out, make them sit. Throw the ball in the stands; you guessed it. Behind your team mate over and over again. Sit and watch.
HTTE: you are right about inside play. The other thing is that there is always a lot of contact inside. Players have to deal with that. Whining about fouls usually works against you the next time as well! The referees are only human and they don’t like criticism. Their only response is how they call it the next game. Isn’t there an opposing coach who does that all the time?
We don’t like that!
Roy, I know you are reading this stuff. Some really heady things that you need to start doing. Like getting the refs to be on our side more often.
On a positive note, the team did shoot free throws better than they have previously.
The final box score does have some ulcer builders: GT got almost as many offensive rebounds as UNC: 15/17. But they took 7 more shots. Turnovers, sharper play, rebounds. It all adds up. Williams says an offensive rebound by an opponent is worth 25 points in his mind.
I live near the Grand Canyon. If you haven’t seen it in person, it is worth a look. Because that sucker is huge. And that is the sort of hole this team has been getting into over and over this year. It is just about impossible to get out of those in one half!
Another thing. I like Henson as much as anybody. I want him to succeed. But he was on pace to have 10-12 turnovers if he played as much as LD II. He hit one shot. Out of three.
Sure he has potential.
That is not a great outcome though.
^^and 14 of those 15 offensive boards by GT came in the first half, i believe. another example of not playing start to finish.
‘You answered your first question yourself. One player has the ball, the other does not. Look at the definition of an intentional foul:
“When a player makes physical contact with another player with no reasonable effort to steal the ball. It is a judgment call for the officials.”
Your second question is answered by the last sentence in the definition: judgment call. A player running through a screen with 10 minutes to go in the first half is not intentionally fouling, a player running through a screen with 8 seconds to go is. This is why you can’t just foul any player after an inbounds pass.”
That looks like an explanation from someone who read basketball in a book and never actually played it. Your definition of an intentional foul is to address a player on a break away, otherwise, every foul that occured when a player did not have the ball would be intentional. It is not an intentional foul and would not be called an intentional foul during the final minute of the game if a player fouled going through a screen. Actually, it does require the official to make a judement call as to whether it was a legal screen or a block / moving screen (go look up those definitions too). At least you are putting it on the officials to make a call versus watching the clock run down as you run around screens.
But it is good to know that the next time that a team wants to run out the clock they just need to surround the player in possession of the ball with legal screens and if any of the screeners are touched then they will receive an intentional foul.
Screening a player with the ball at end of game is clever coaching. I have to admit I have never seen UNC do that.
Maybe we will learn. It may have been the players who simply made up this strategy. But it looked more like a coached play. So credit to GT on that one as well.
i didnt see what GT did at game’s end as intentional screening, at all. i think it just worked out they were in the same area.
Either way, it worked.
UNC digs too far of a hole to worry about screens at the end of the game. the ‘x’ factor in this team is savvy. we don’t have it. we don’t know when to take a 3 to tie the game versus drive for a layup while down 2 (CoC), or that if we miss our first try our next move is to immediately foul. even if it’s in our head (drive to the wing and throw it to the trailer ala larry’s 2 foot laser to graves), we still don’t do it right….might not have been larry’s fault, maybe graves was supposed to go to the top of the key while graves thought he was making a ball screen. it’s the little things that kill us. open psot player, we throw a bad entry pass.. man, it’s just not like UNC teams, it’s not coaching, not easily quantifiable either, it’s little things that winners and players with confidence and savvy do, that losers and shaky players do not.
it is the MOST frustrating thing about this team yet the reason im optimistic b/c i know each and every one of these guys has confidence and swag and they just need to get their swagger baack!