I’ve got nothing. Nada. Zip. I am not sure what I saw tonight is worth me writing 1000 words on and even if it did what pray tell would I write which would be any different than what I have written for the other three ACC losses? Let’s just go with:
Blah, blah, turnovers, blah blah blah. Yada, yada, bad offense, bad defense. Blah, blah, blah opposing team hits threes like they are layups. Yada, yada, blah, blah too much Marcus Ginyard.
NIT anyone?
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Well that sure was a baptism by poop.
At this point, the inevitable conclusion is that this is either 1) a really bad group of players or 2) a really bad coaching job. There is no other way to rationalize the disaster that this season has become. It has to be one of those two things.
Tony Bennett is a class act and a smart guy. When he saw that Roy was going to play Marcus Ginyard, he simply said, hey guys, it’s basically 5 on 4 when we’re on defense. Put two guys on Davis and we win the game.
When will Roy realize that the key to winning basketball games is sitting beside him on the bench, he wears this big white sleeve on his arm.
we should not do the NIT. let’s get this year behind us……..
Ginyard should retire right now.
I didn’t understand last season how Notre Dame crashed and burned the way they did. Now I get it.
Terence Petree had four points in one minute which was as many as the following Heels:
Strickland
T. Wear
Ed Davis
And more than:
Henson
McDonald
Ginyard
Start him.
When you’re leading scorers are Larry Drew and Will Graves, there’s bound to be issues.
I think Ed Davis shouldn’t play again until Duke. You can tell he’s not as effective out there and I think the injury is slowing him down terribly. I think I’m in the consensus here that Ginyard should barely be seeing minutes, but it looks like Roy already has his mind made up about that.
The frustrating thing for me is that this team is not imrpoving. I would hope that playing at Kentucky and (pretty much) Syracuse and Texas would have been great to prepare them for the perils of ACC play. It hasn’t helped out at all. I don’t want to give up on this team because of my love for North Carolina, but the lack of leadership and effort from most of these guys makes it hard to root for them.
my god men, we stink.
This is so frustrating to watch. How do you come out with a showing like tonight after the showing against NC State? Very difficult to understand.
In regard to coaching issues vs. player issues…I think you have to say there are some things going on from both sides. Clearly the players continue to make the same mistakes over and over again…how many times do you have to give up an 18 or more to zero run before you realize that you are burying yourself??? The turnovers, especially the unforced ones continue. You have to believe they spend a significant amount of time working on this in practice, doesn’t seem to be sinking in…
The Ginyard playing time issue is certainly significant, and yet Roy continues to run him out there. It becomes clearer and clearer that his time should be reduced while others, Strickland and McDonald, should see more time.
Hard to guess where the season goes from here…guess we’ll see what these guys as individuals and as a collective group, are made of, I can only hope the mental toughness becomes stronger as the season wears on.
this team isn’t worth one more iota of my emotion the rest of the year, positive or negative.
I will watch one more game the rest of this year — the FSU home game that my father in law got us tix for a while back — and that one only out of respect for him.
This team otherwise ain’t worth the thread used to stitch the uniforms they have proven themselves wholly unworthy to wear.
“NIT anyone?”
We won’t be going to the NIT becasue we’ll have a losing record, and because even in the unlikely event we break even, we don’t deserve to.
We were blown out — blown out — by a mediocre team in our own gym. The game was over with five minutes gone in the second half.
As I said toward the end of the last thread, this was a collective failure, starting with Roy Williams. Drastic action is called for.
We are the laughinstock of the league, not to mention the doormat. Does anyone here recognize this as North Carolina basketball?
i KNOW i didnt just read that twitter from Deon up at the top of this page. i KNOW i didnt. that couldnt have been Deon. someone must have taken his phone.
oh, and p.s.:
STOP TWITTERING about anything.
These guys are all fine young men and they all are a credit to their parents in terms of demeanor, but I am not sure that there is a single guy on this basketball team that I enjoy watching or whose game I admire.
If Ed Davis wants to go pro next year, then I wish him the best. If Brendan Wright couldn’t do anything at the next level, I have no idea why some NBA genius thinks Ed Davis will, but what do I know. Of course, not a single one of the players from UNC’s last two national championship teams has made any ripple at all on the next level (with the possible exception of Ray Felton, and for Ty Lawson, it is too early to tell. Hansbrough never seems to play).
For all you guys who think Roy is a single game coaching genius, ask yourself which coach imposed his will on this game and made the other coach play his game?
While we’re talking about playing time, yes Strickland should be getting more. McDonald, too. And while Henson’s issues have been well documented, I really think he goes out there and thinks way too much and is on too short a leash. I think it’s going to be hard for Roy to ask the guys like McDonald, David Wear, and Henson to develop if their constantly sitting down while Deon and Marcus are playing like this is the first time they’ve dribbled a basketball.
In terms of numbers, there were two stats that pretty much guaranteed a loss. Obviously were the turnovers, but UVa had nearly as many (15) to UNC’s 17. The Heels also shot a putrid 11-22 from the free throw line. Just hitting five or six more free throws could have helped change the game.
The other stat is the rebounds. Not the total and that we just managed to outrebound the Cavs by five, but Will Graves and Travis Wear once again outrebounded Deon Thompson. What gives with that? Shouldn’t that senior be doing a better job on the boards?
I think the two major changes should be starting Strickland at the 2 and Travis Wear at the 4. Heck, Graves has made no bones about crashing the boards and boxing out, so you could even put him at the 4 in spurts. But if we want Henson to develop any further to what he’s capable of becoming, he needs more than five minutes. It’s not like his lack of size would be any worse than Deon’s lack of effort and intensity on the glass.
HTTE, I agree with your post. Instead of tweeting about it, act like the senior leader you’re supposed to be and do something about it.
I’m pretty sure Deon said that in the post game, not in a tweet, but the point remains, the time for talking about it is over. Don’t talk about being intense, or trying harder, play like you did against State.
^in other news, Brett Favre calls for fewer late game interceptions in their next game.
might as well close that barn door, too, now that the horses are gone.
Well I’m “frickin’ ticked off…”, mostly at Roy. The rotation was just painful, Marcus stayed in forever and when he got frustrated he rotated a full five. No don’t look at who is having trouble covering 15 or if we are getting production just leave them in the whole game. That was a coaching failure, there were issues on the court but we never adapted or changed a thing. Do you know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Welcome to the crazy house.
Ginyard was not effective, Graves did well at points but the extra biscuits he carries around with him made his less than great on 15 over the course of the game. Henson, well he had a good 2-3 minutes and that was it, sure you made a basket, did fairly well on defense but you need to sit down so I can have Marcus in the game. He made some great passes and they were delivered into the hands of his team mate. Wow. I really like Henson and I can’t imagine what this must feel like from his perspective. Damn. If you look at player performance tied to time throughout the game I think you’d be able to see the issues more clearly but I haven’t seen that presented in that format. It also felt as though Ed is still hurt or has no fire, the low number of points from the paint was just terrible. I know these kids care and have the talent, I just wish we’d get to see it more often.
Free throw shooting was terrible as well. Virginia made their shots from the charity stripe.
I’m pretty tired of watching this and while I am always looking forward to football season, I’m really looking forward to it now.
I actually kind of like the suggestion by Rath that Roy should bench himself.
I think Roy has had just about the worst year humanly possible since winning the title last year.
He has had a painful injury.
He managed to write an autobiography that was actually not particularly flattering to himself(unlike the Adam Lucas book and the long SI article which were highly flattering).
He complained that after winning the national title that people in North Carolina were not appreciative enough.
He made the smug comment about John Wall “not being a good fit,” when even if this was true, the adult response was to simply say that John Wall chose Kentucky, not UNC. He made the asinine decision to call security on a fan who said nothing worse than “don’t miss it, Deon.”
Roy’s team has been an utter embarrassment. Tonight was at home, against a far inferior opponent but the second half was essentially the same as the Syracuse game. UNC let an opponent score close to twenty straight points, while Marcus Ginyard raced up and down the court pretending to be a defensive ace and pushing his shooting percentage in ACC play to the teens.
I am not saying Roy has sunk quite as far as John Edwards, but he might be having the second worse year among famous North Carolinians….
Marcus now shooing 21.4% in ACC games, with 17 points total, 2 fewer than Zeglinski. oh, let me clarify. 2 fewer than Zeglinski had TONIGHT.
You know, at some point, Roy is not doing Ginyard any favors by subjecting him to this well deserved criticism. Ginyard is just getting carved to shreds on the IC boards.
I can’t remember who the writer was but some sportswriter had an article in which he stated that if Ginyard had not gotten hurt last year, UNC would not have won that national title because Roy would have refused to play Danny Green as a starter.
That is provocative stuff and unfortunately, a huge number of people believe it because of two unfortunate but almost incontrovertible facts:
1) Danny Green was a far,far better player than Ginyard, and 2) Roy would have refused to play Danny Green as a starter unless Ginyard was hurt.
Henson had that nice pull up Durant 15-footer in the first half. How about running some more plays for him like that. Let the kid play. Who would think we would be watching UNC play in the ACC tournament on a Thursday.
Time for Roy’s back to flair up?
william –
The one thing you left out of what a dreadful year Roy is having is that he’s BUDDIES with Edwards. I’m sure I saw the two of them yucking it up in the stands a couple of months ago.
I couldn’t believe it when it came out last week that Edwards made a sex tape of himself and the young lady he was seeing while his wife was battling incurable cancer.
I mean, A SEX TAPE??? The guy is FIFTY-SIX YEARS OLD. And he’s making a sex tape? I’ve heard of ego, but that is truly other-worldly.
For a long time I thought Nixon was the most contemptible man in public life I’d ever heard of, but I believe Edwards has him beat.
While there are plenty of people rightfully, pointing fingers at Ginyard, and at Roy for playing Ginyard, he’s not the root problem. For that matter neither is Roy. Being more assertive isn’t something that Roy can do for them. The team has played the way that they needed too in the NC State game. Ginyard played a lot in that game, but they were assertive as a team and won going away. They don’t play that way tonight and they got embarrassed. Roy can’t do that for them, and Ginyard being on the bench isn’t going to change that. that intensity level is a requirement for every game not a one time high water mark.
Deon’s updated ACC numbers: 11.5 and 4.3.
6’8″ Joe Trapani of BC? 13 and 5.5.
6’8″ Tracy Smith of State? 16 and 8.
6’8″ Mike Scott of VIRGINIA? 12.3 and 5.3.
just sayin.
Do you think that John was telling Roy about the sex tape when you saw them?
@ William: I love watching Strickland play. He attacks and shows effort. He may not always be in the right place, but he shows fire and I really like that. On this team especially.
My one major concern with this team is that there is absolutely no chemistry to speak of on this team. Not between the players or coaches. The players are either tuning Roy out or so afraid of him that they are not playing loose. The guys just don’t look like they care about one another, and that’s sad.
What I can’t comprehend is that this is a team that is defending a National Title, whether they were on last year’s team or not. This should not be happening. Roy is trying to play last year’s game with this year’s group and it’s not working. He should know better. He’s paid to know better.
The lack of chemistry not only makes it hard for the guys to win, but it makes it hard for the fans to root for the team. We can root for a team losing, but it’s much harder to root for a group of guys that don’t care about the team.
I can’t believe how dead tarheelfanblog.com is tonight.
“This isn’t the way it was supposed to be. When Marcus Ginyard made the gut-wrenching decision to redshirt last season, he knew he might be giving up his best chance of playing in a National Championship game. It was the idea of teaching and leading a group of young freshmen, much like David Noel did for his class, that convinced Marcus to give up his Championship dreams and come back for a fifth year. But things haven’t turned out the way he expected…
…and now he sits alone in the locker room, staring at his shoes and wondering what comes next. In the morning he will get back out on the court and keep trying. Keep pushing himself and his teamates, not because he’s sure it will work, but because of who he is. He’s a Roy Williams player. It’s all he knows.”
I have been a Tar Heel fan for 40 years! In that 40 years I have seen some great teams! I have seen teams that were young and inexperienced. I have always seen teams no matter how great or how much inexperienced take pride in the uniform that they wear. I think it is about time Roy Williams orders new uniforms for this team. The new uniforms will not have “North Carolina on it, and they will not have the name of the player on it! Roy Williams should tell this group, you will not wear the North Carolina uniform untill you respect it with the way that all have respected it in the past
take pride in our tridition!
At least the 09 team still makes me feel good, with Ty looking good for the Nuggets and Danny Green becoming Lebron’s right-hand goof-off buddy. Good for them! (crying on the inside)
This may be the most disappointing season in UNC history, since McGuire arrived.
In the immortal words of Emmitt Smith. “We got blowed out”,”We had to many pelaties” This team doesn’t have “The rice of passage” It looks like the team has been “Carousing”:)
OH well I can’t cry about it anymore. I might as well laugh about it. Check out this youtube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGT08DTk3NM
“He made the smug comment about John Wall “not being a good fit,” when even if this was true, the adult response was to simply say that John Wall chose Kentucky, not UNC.”
This only would have been the adult response if it were actually true. UNC never made an offer to Wall, so when answering the question as to why, it would be pretty disingenuous so say that he simply chose UK.
It can’t get any worse than this, can it? I believe in loyalty, but Marcus simply can’t start anymore, and he should barely see the court even in spot minutes. It’s sad, really. Such a good kid.
Roy Williams has chosen stubborness over adaptability. Yesterday in the first half UNC needed to go zone to stop the easy drives to the basket. But Roy won’t do that. Yesterday in the 2nd half, Roy needed to stop leaving the outside shooters wide open to double down on … whoever… down in the paint. But Roy won’t stop doing that. All year long, Ginyard has needed to be taken out of the starting lineup. But Roy won’t do that. Oh – and there weren’t any timeouts taken during that disasterous UVA run in the 2nd half, but then again if you aren’t going to make any adjustments then there is no point in taking a timeout anyways. Roy flat out cannot coach this team.
I refuse to believe that there is not enough talent on this team to not even make it to the NCAA tournament. I can’t let myself believe that… because if thats true, then we are probably a whole bunch of transfers and three more recruiting classes away from being relevant again. This feels like the Bersticker/Boone/Morrison/Lang years all over again…
This game is the price UNC pays for the national championship last year. Was it worth it?
I see a group of players who just can’t do what the coach wants them to do. Can Ol’ Roy not fit his system better to his players? I hate to say this, because he is a HOF coach, but this year’s team seems psyched out. He did the platoon thing, early in the 2nd half, but the next five didn’t have any better luck giving him what he wanted than the last five. Then the first five came back, and they still didn’t have any luck, but they were so psyched out that they had that deer-in-headlights look. I guess what Coach Williams wants to do is have the freshmen play his system and see what they can do (for the future), not change his system to fit the team.
“I really didn’t have expectations in terms of wins and losses,” Bennett said. “I wanted it to be about quality, and I wanted these guys to get a feel for when they play defensively the right way, they have a chance to be in games, and to come together a little more offensively. That has happened at moments. At times, we’ve looked pretty poor, I’ll be honest.”
^there ya go–gift from Coach B. This is the way out of the woods for UNC. Forget the “taking down the baskets” gimmick. Forget worrying about offensive sets and fast breaks. Forget about all the fan hand-wringing about player combo’s. Simply pull the tape, and watch BOTH how YOU got broken down on defense, and how THEY defended you. UVa isn’t anything special–they won’t win the ACC, and they also aren’t “crappy or mediocre” like many of you think. They simply play very efficiently, which, when playing against a non-cerebral team like ours, has a devastating snowball effect. Roy & team: go back to the defensive drawing board, and learn how to play smart, efficient defense. Forget everything else for now.
Like everyone else, I’m mad too. Depressed is a better word. But c’mon, UNC is having a crappy season after dominating the past decade and everyone begins to bail on Roy… and in many instances, the team? Pretty sad. Go Heels!
i was almost with you on the rims-off tough love practices til i read this:
http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/013110aad.html
so. they dont have the desire. the intensity. the effort. the willingness to do the work.
21 games in.
with 10 games left.
so be it then.
ya know, even last year’s team seemed to take almost to the end to “get it”.
whats the deal with that?
Philosophers can debate whether Roy’s calling Wall constituted some form of recruiting.
Regardless, there certainly were many far more diplomatic ways of answering the question about Wall, without saying something that was susceptible to a negative interpretation such as “not a good fit.” And if a person isn’t quick enough to come up with something, then “no comment” usually works.
I think you’re reading in to the John Wall situation a bit too deep. “Not a good fit” seems harmless to me. It’s too easy to say that Roy should have recruited him after watching this years squad on the court.
Somehow we ended up in a public tiff with Wall over his recruitment, which obviously is exacerbated by the mediocre performance of our guards.
I’ve always thought coaches get way too much credit or blame, proportionately, compared to their players. Sure, some coaches can prepare much less-talented teams to play as a unit and acheive at a level seemingly beyond their abilities. But the players’ ability to put the coaches’ instructions into play can be just as much of a talent as their athletic attributes. There is only so much a head coach and staff can do, and ultimately the players’ are the ones who have to turn it around. I’m putting the majority of responsiblity and blame on the UNC players. They are just going to have to play harder and smarter.
And BTW, credit to Virginia . Landesberg is a heckuva player and I thought Evans played well too.
It is ironic that in the 100th season of North Carolina basketball that we get to witness the worse coaching job EVER.
And please stop with the “bail on Roy and team” comments. No one has bailed, we’ve witnessed this crap for the past 2 months and we’re still here, and we’ll still be here after another two crappy months of unorganized basketball. But please tell me why any fan should not be hard on the coach or the team for performances that are not representative of the 100 years of Carolina basketball. Can anyone tell me one drastic change the coaching staff has done to try to ignite the play of this clueless bunch? We still see the same lineups and strategies (the zone out of the out of bounds was even ditched last night). We continue to see the same coach’s pets unproductively play the majority of the minutes in lieu of more talented, productive, and younger players, while we continue to hear players use words like fire, emotion, desire, and effort after each of the weekly floggings they receive on the basketball court. No one is bailing on North Carolina basketball, but what we continue to see from the coaches and players during this season does not even resemble North Carolina basketball. This is the most disappointing and disastrous season in the 100 years of North Carolina Basketball, and that includes the 8 win season of 2002.
I wish I could bail on this season, as the games have become too frustrating and disappointing to watch. But like any addict I continue to do things that are not good for my health or wellbeing, so I continue to watch. But I’ve made a pack with myself to try to limit some of the horror, where I’ve decided I will not watch another minute of Carolina basketball this season when Marcus Ginyard is on the court. I’ll flip to check out a score, and if Ginyard isn’t on the court I’ll continue to watch, but as soon as Ginyard is back in the line up, CLICK. I’m guessing I’ll limit my addiction to maybe 10 minutes of game action for the rest of this season, which should help limit the punishment to my mental health.
Didn’t actually watch the game. DVR’d it, but after listening to the last 5 minutes on XM and having Eric Montross basically call out the team for lack of effort, figured it wasn’t worth my time.
I don’t understand the piling on Roy thing going on here. I don’t understand him sticking with Marcus, but I haven’t won nearly 80% of my games as UNC head coach and 2 of the last 5 national titles, so I’ll defer to the guy who has. Maybe Roy does have some misplaced loyalty to Marcus, maybe that’s hurting us short-term, but if Roy feels that’s what’s best for the program, I’m more than willing to give Roy the benefit of the doubt on this one.
Reading the TarHeelBlue.com story by AL, it seems to me this season is all on the players. Perhaps Roy’s ‘system’ doesn’t exactly fit this group, but I think most here recognize this is a building project towards next year. We know the players, by their own admission, keep making the same mistakes over and over again despite constant harping/criticism/teaching/coaching/coddling by the coaching staff. At some point, our players need to man up and get the job done. Then, to hear the guys say intensity has been lacking in practice, well that’s just a friggin’ disgrace to every player and coach that’s come before these guys in the UNC program.
IMO, they don’t deserve to call themselves Tar Heels. What a privilege to play for UNC and represent this great university and state and fan base, and then not to try your hardest? That, to me, is unforgivable. I would echo others’ thoughts here–I still support this program and will continue to this year and beyond, but it’s hard to get emotionally invested when the players themselves aren’t.
Sorry for the double post, but wanted to weigh on the Wall situation.
I’m a college coach and I totally understand what Roy is saying that it wasn’t a good fit. Maybe not the best choice of words or too honest on Roy’s part, but that fits his persona;) We all know that Wall came with baggage, and Roy didn’t want that to become a part of the program. You have to find kids that are good fits athletically and academically to your specific institution, and who you think will fit into your program philosophy. No doubt Wall would have been a great fit athletically, but my guess is Roy didn’t feel a buy-in on Wall’s part in one of the other areas. Roy is, frankly, the best recruiter of his generation, so again I’ll defer to his superior judgment.
Any goals we may have had for this season are out of reach. Its our 100 year anniversary and we are going to celebrate it by missing the NCAA tournament for only the second time in the last thirty (or forty?) years. That is tough to swallow. But, there is only one thing that could make this year any worse and that would be exiting this year without having built a foundation for success next year… and if Ginyard and Thompson aren’t benched that is exactly what is going to happen. Henson, Strickland and the Wears cannot enter next season with zero experience as starters if we are going to get back to playing Carolina basketball next year. The “Seniors Appreciation Tour” has gone on long enough. It is time to focus on the Team and it is time to focus on the future.
^^^maybe a motivation to try is to take their names off their jerseys. i dont recall that ever being done the last 30 years here.
that stretch yesterday…
second half…18:27 left to 15:38 left…thats 2:49, i believe.
VA:
4 rebounds (1 Off)
5-5 FGs (3 in the paint, 2 3s)
3-3 FTs
UNC:
0 rebounds
2 TOs (Will, Ed)
0-3 FGs (Will from 3, then Travis and John after the mass sub)
4 fouls (Marcus, Ed, then Travis and Dex after the mass sub)
went from 3 point lead to 18, game over.
a couple of those fouls were dubious at best, but like prior bad games, i can’t even address them til the team plays better.
All you heard about entering the season was the comparison between this year’s team and the 2006 team. Can we put those comparisons to rest now? The fact is that the 2006 team had better players. I know it’s hard to admit but this is one of the most overrated freshmen classes in college basketball history. There is no Hansbrough or even Danny Green on this team. Just a bunch of role players. Henson may end up being the biggest bust since Clifford Rozier. Ol’ Roy is getting lambasted here and coaching plays a part but when it comes down to it Ol’ Roy isn’t out there on the court shooting and playing defense. You just don’t get the sense when you watch this team that there is really any talent there. Just my two cents. Hopefully next year the new recruits will not be all hype and no substance.
I have no doubt that a big part of Roy’s “not a good fit” comment on John Wall, the unspoken but implied part, had to do with his handler, Brian Clifton, and not necessarily John himself.
TarHeelInMinny,
If Roy does not make a point of putting the most unproductive player on the bench, then why would any of the other players take him seriously about their performances? By playing Ginyard as much as he has during the past 3 weeks when Ginyard has had disastrous performance after performance, if you are a young player on this team why would you be motivated to improve your effort or performance because Marcus doesn’t do it and he still plays more than anyone else on the team. What was Strickland’s reward for playing a terrific and productive game at N.C. State; he got to watch the majority of the first half from the bench and got his most meaningful minutes when the game was out of reach. Why bust your butt and prove you deserve more playing time, when the coach’s pets are still is going to garner the majority of the minutes no matter their performance.
might as well purge all this at once….
i cant even get that mad at freshmen. and Drew only some.
but you simply CANNOT have your two seniors TOTALING 14 points per ACC contest. you CAN…NOT. period.
yesterday, they scored ONE point every 6 minutes, and ONE rebound every 7.
57 minutes…9 points, 8 boards. TOTAL.
Marcus, unless i missed something, played 11:37 of the second half, a half we KNOW we were down 18 with 15:38 left, and recorded not one single positive stat.
not a point. not a rebound. not a steal. nothing.
and i made a point of watching him play D on several plays, and i didnt see him make any stops. if he denied Landesberg the ball, they would just work it around and he would get it on the next pass.
“I know it’s hard to admit but this is one of the most overrated freshmen classes in college basketball history.”
How would you know, considering that most of the freshmen play less than 10 minutes a game? Yes they are overrated from the expectations going into the season, but the freshman are not playing the majority of the minutes when this team is being pantsed by the opposition on a nightly basis. What Carolina has is the most overrated and disappointing Senior class in history.
The Heels are in danger of missing … the NIT. Ol’ Roy is not coaching these boys right. He wants to run, but they are not built to run. How many times have you ever, ever seen Deon or Ed finish on the fast break this year or last year? Watch Ed. He is slower than my dead grandma running the court. Deon – slow. Will – slow. Larry – slow. We have one fast player in Strickland. And we are physically weak inside. The bottom line is that we are not good, and we will not be good until this slow group is gone and Roy can run the offense he wants. Thankfully, the slow group, including Ed, checks out at the end of the year.
Big Game –
“not anything special” = “mediocre” It’s just a differene in wording, not meaning. We got crunched by a team that seems to know how to play but isn’t going anywhere and, with the exception of Landesberg, has no really top players.
TarHeelInMinny –
Roy has an outstanding record and has earned his spot in the HOF. But it’s clear that he does not know how to handle this particular team, and it shows, as (unfortunately) we’ve all seen. Carolina has a right to expect better.
scl11 –
“Addiction” is exactly the right word. As for Ginyard, it might be accumulated injuries, or it might be something else, but whatever it is, he just can’t play basketball anymore, so he has to sit. That said, our problems extend well beyond him.
TheUNCFan –
“This game is the price UNC pays for the national championship last year. Was it worth it?”
I can’t agree with your premise. Losing Lawson and Ellington was facilitated by our winning the NCAAT, but they almost surely would have gone in any event, as do many underclassmen of similar ability on teams that don’t win the championship.
But for however that may be, our team is stocked with high school All-Americas, and thus we shouldn’t look THIS bad regardless of our losses from last year’s squad.
“That said, our problems extend well beyond him.”
Agree, but we have to start the change somewhere and if that isn’t number 1 on the list it is definitely 1A.
We have to bench Ginyard and Thompson because there is nothing left to play for this year and they aren’t going to be around to “help” us next year. Its as simple as that. Their poor play helped turn this into a “throw away” season. The only worthwhile objective that can be applied to our next 10 games is to get guys ready for next year. By definition that objective doesn’t include Ginyard and Thompson.
we basically have 2 Seniors, a Junior, 2 Sophomores and 5 Freshmen playing right now.
the Junior, Will, is doing what he can. 13.8 points and 6.5 rebounds per ACC game. (thats 2+ rebounds more than Deon, who doesnt defend the same kind of outside shooters)
one sophomore, Ed, has been limited by an ankle lately. he still has 10.4 and 7.8.
the other sophomore, LD2, is averaging 11 and 3.3, plus 6.3 assists (3.3 TOs). by comparison, thats 1 rebound per ACC game less than Deon. and he’s 10/22 from 3.
the two Seniors average 14.3 and 7.1 TOGETHER. (Marcus: 2.8 and 2.8, and he’s 6’5″)
This is an extremely difficult position to be in. First off, you want to reward guys that have played year after year with consistency and effort. For the most part, our seniors have done this. Second, it looks good to incoming hs players to see Roy rewards them for their continual effort. While blue chipper one and doners might not like this approach, most that have staying power do.
Second off, I hate the term senority. I like to pay people for their current effort, not what they’ve done in the past or how long they have been around. Tell me, what good does it do to reward someone more than anyone else for sticking around when it hasn’t led to more productivity. Sorry folks, but if I’m running a business, and the new kid in town is outworking the person that has been there for 10 years, then I’m rewarding the productivity of the Johnny come lately.
Let’s just reward our seniors with the starting position, give them the opportunity first, and if it’s not working, allow someone else the chance to earn the gig.
I see some of your frustrations as they play themselves out during gametime. This year is a good set of material for Rod Sterling, or maybe Stephen King. We are not building for next season at all by our coaching decisions. Wish I knew what Roy was thinking. When was the last time we had a situation like this? Really, I mean, we have next year’s sophomores getting little minutes, and there will be no experience on next year’s squad.
But hey, maybe that is a good thing, right? This could be like getting the class of 03, or even 06, because you can add up our current freshmen and next years class and treat it like the sensational 7 coming in at one time.
End of confused rant.
so thats:
13.8 6.5 Will
10.4 7.8 Ed
11.0 3.3 LD2
11.5 4.3 Deon
02.8 2.8 Marcus
49.5 24.7 Total
using % of these 5 players minutes…
22.7% min 27.9% points 26.3% rebounds Will
20. % min 21 % points 31.6% rebounds Ed
21.6% min 22 % points 13.3% rebounds LD2
20 % min 23.2% points 17.4% rebounds Deon
18.5% min 05.6% points 11.3% rebounds Marcus
Will and Ed at least surpass their playing % with their point and rebound production. Larry does, too, considering his assists. Deon isnt rebounding, and Marcus is doing neither…woefully.
Will is but a sliver from equaling the total ACC game production of Deon and Marcus combined.
What I was trying to say is WOW!, look at next year’s incoming class. Probably the best ever! We have John Henson, Dexter Strickland, Leslie McDonald, Reggie Bullock, Harrison Barnes, and Kendall Marshall. That could go down as the best incoming freshmen class of all time!
Not much that I can add to the many comments here. We have players of limited talent. There is no leadership evident on or off the court by players or staff. More talented players are riding the pines in deference to older players with less talent and certainly with less drive to play well. Maybe the two titles in five years made us all too fat and happy but it is also a disgrace that the 100th year of Tarheel basketball wiil be played by perhaps the worst bunch of underachievers that I have seen take the court. Maybe it is due to injury but Marcus is hurting more than he has helped at any point of this season. Time to play the frosh and maybe be better prepared for next year?
the Seniors also have 14 TOs apiece. thats 43.7% of the ACC turnovers of those 5 players. they are literally 40% of the 5 players, and they are Seniors. to me, they should have fewer turnovers.
ok, i’m done.
i think i need a break from even thinking about the team.
One thing that I can promise is that you will not see a starting lineup change the rest of the season (unless for injury). For 2 reasons:
1) History tells us Roy Williams does not change his starting lineups from the beginning of the season
2) If a lineup change was made and play improved, then the “know more in my one little pinky” argument takes a hit to its credibility, especially after the public discussion of Davis for Thompson last season.
I know one thing though; pride, stubbornness, and ego are not attributes from the head coach that will improve the current tribulations and performance of this team.
Native Heel -
We do have very talented players. They are just not being approriately utilized at this moment in time. That is not their fault but good old Roy.
I do not think we should change the starting lineup. Just limit minutes for non productive players.
Go heels!
UNC fans,
I want to you to go back and look at Ginyard’s numbers from the Texas, Ohio State, Syracuse and Michigan State games. He was a key contributor in those games. Against Ohio State and Michigan State he did an amazing job defending and contributing on offense. If you may recall, Roy said that he was confident whenever Ginyard shot a jumper it would go in. While many of the folks over here would like to blame Ginyard for Sylvan Landesberg’s performance against the Heels. What many have overlooked is that Graves defended Landesberg for most of the first half. They even threw Henson at Landesberg for five minutes. Ginyard had to shadow Zeglinski the entire first half. If I am not mistaken, when they switched Ginyard, Zeglinski went off. That means someone is not doing good job of defending.
From my perspective, it isn’t prudent to have Graves and Ginyard on the floor at the same time at least for now. Graves is a set shooter. While Graves is a decent outside shooter, defenders do not have to worry about his ability to get to the basket. He has a tendancy to stand around when he doesn’t have the ball. I think the UNC backcourt should include Strickland and Drew II. Ginyard should be on the wing. I think he will eventually get his shot back, but for the time being we need his defense and the quickness that Strickland brings.
In addition, whether we want to admit it or not. The young Heels are missing Tyler Zeller. He is an additional scorer. Plus despite playing about 16 minutes a game, he snags about as many rebounds as Deon Thompson. While he is not a shot blocker, his height still causes problems for other teams.
^faustus,
absolutely on Marcus’ numbers vs those 4 teams. points, rebounds, assists. all great.unfortunately, that was about 6 weeks ago.
if he’s hurt, he shouldnt be playing 25 minutes a game.
Heel to The End,
My problem is that while we have seen a solid effort for Graves. I am not sure he is a starter. He is not a good defender. He is simply not quick enough to defend other wings. I would like to see this starting lineup:
F-Davis
F-Thompson(we know that he will not be benched)
G/F-Marcus Ginyard
G-Dexter Strickland
G- Larry Drew II
Graves will split time with Ginyard. Strickland will move over to the point when Drew needs a rest. McDonald will be the backup to the shooting guard slot.
@scl11 – If that’s the response of the players “Well, Marcus sucks and gets to play, so I can suck, too,” then I know what our problem is this season. Hopefully our players are more mature than that and are intrinsically motivated to play well whenever they get the chance. Each man has to be committed to fulfilling his role at a very high level, whether playing 35 or 5 minutes.
I frankly don’t understand those here ripping on Roy. Ten months ago the man was a genius for figuring out how to get Lawson, Green, Tyler and Wayne to mesh together, but now all of a sudden he’s an idiot and we deserve better than the job he’s done this year? I just don’t buy that one bit. I think, at least judging from his public comments, he’s been extremely patient with this group.
Well said TarHeelInMinny…
my word, some of you are blowing so much collective sunshine up the wazoo on this team’s prospects that you’re going to need Preparation H with SPF before too long.
for real.
“I am not sure he is a starter. He is not a good defender. He is simply not quick enough to defend other wings.”
Are you sure you’re talking about Graves because those same comments could apply to Ginyard. For a shut down defender, Carolina surely has a lot of perimeter players going for career highs against them. You can pick either Landesburg or Zelinski from last night as an example.
Tarheelinminny, you miss my point. What motivation does a player have to do his best and leave it all out on the floor every practice and every game, when in the end the coach’s pet is going to play no matter what. That causes resentment and a lack of trust, which leads to chemistry issues. Do you recall how often Roy would call out Green or Lawson last year or Drew and Strickland this year for bad performances or having to play better. Now tell me when Roy has ever called out Ginyard for a bad performance much less during some of the worse basketball performances in UNC history in recent weeks.
“Ten months ago the man was a genius for figuring out how to get Lawson, Green, Tyler and Wayne to mesh together, but now all of a sudden he’s an idiot and we deserve better than the job he’s done this year?”
Yes, Roy is a HOF coach and deserves all the praise in the world for his performances in past years, but that has nothing to do with the horrible coaching job he is doing this year. It doesn’t mean we don’t appreciate the past performances, but it definitely doesn’t give him a pass on stinking up the joint this season. That is same type of blind loyalty that is reason Marcus Ginyard still sees the court 30min a contest. Roy is a great coach and I’m proud to have him representing the University of North Carolina, but his past success should not exclude him from being accurately evaluated on his current performances. And right now Roy is not getting it done, period.
What would be said if Ginyard were benched and the outcomes were the same? Just wondering….
“My problem is that while we have seen a solid effort for Graves. I am not sure he is a starter. He is not a good defender. He is simply not quick enough to defend other wings.”
spot on & I mentioned it last night—he would be more than fine at the 4 on defense imo, but he’s not the only problem on defense…it’s a problem from the top down.
^^we’d say we lost due to lack of experience, or freshmen mistakes/learning curve.
Ginyard = Senior. Experienced.
In a program like UNC, losing is unacceptable, no matter the reason.
^^^We’d say it least we’re developing players for the future and building a foundation of experience on the future of the program. Versus rewarding a 5th year coach’s pet for not improving his game since his freshman season and painfully watch as this shell of a basketball player tries to contribute at the highest level of NCAA baskeball.
i dont agree that losing is unacceptable, no matter the reason.
That’s the general consensus. There’s always an excuse when you need one…
scl11,
If you noticed, when Ginyard covered Zieglinski he didn’t get very many open looks. Ginyard also did a better job against Landesberg. Unfortunately, it was not good enough. We have seen Ginyard do well defensively against some of the better players in college basketball. His defense caused Evan Turner to commit 10 turnovers.
^Really? You still trying sell this Ginyard is a great defender crap, outside of the game with OSU 2 1/2 months ago, name one performance where Ginyard shut down an opponents top perimeter player? Just One?
Its ironic that Ginyard has this great perimeter defender reputation that is not backed up with any substance or facts kind of like Carolina’s preseason hype.
The “great defender” meme is overwrought in general on the college level. Seriously, how does anyone know without spending time pouring over the game tape and only watching defensive possessions. You can take cues from player X scoring more or less depending on the assignment but the main problem is defense is not quantifiable outside of steals and blocks like offense is. Case in point is Duke’s Shelden Williams who was lauded as being some kind of great defensive player, probably because he blocked shots. However consider the unholy things Sean May and Tyler Hansbrough did to Williams. If he was so great why was it those two basically did anything they wanted against him.
“main problem is defense is not quantifiable outside of steals and blocks”
And making it even more difficult, steals (and in some cases, blocks) are often created by the play of one’s teammate. If players A and B execute a perfect trap and cause the opponent to throw an errant pass, player C may get the steal, but was it really because of his defense? And blocks, IMO, are one of the more overrated stats there is, as often in going for a block a player will put himself out of position to rebound or defend against a dump off. Hansbrough never blocked shots, but he was a huge asset to the defense because he kept his position, took the occasional charge, and cleaned up the defensive glass. Great defenders block shots when they can do it within their role in the defense.
Talent speaks for itself. When a player gets on the court you can tell by the way they carry themselves, shoot, defend, etc. that they have talent regardless of the kind of system they are in. From day one when these freshmen stepped on the court you never sensed that. Everyone’s slammin Ol’ Roy because he’s not playing the freshmen. Don’t you think that if they could help UNC win he would play them? I think Roy wants to win as bad if not more so then the fans. I’m just tired of hearing about how talented this team is. If they are so talented why do they shoot so poorly? Why don’t they defend better? Why do they blow so many lay ups? Why can’t they shoot free throws? While there may be some latent talent among the freshmen let’s face it none of them are NBA prospects. So if we’re hoping things will change if Roy benches the seniors it won’t.
TarHeelInMinny –
“I frankly don’t understand those here ripping on Roy. Ten months ago the man was a genius for figuring out how to get Lawson, Green, Tyler and Wayne to mesh together, but now all of a sudden he’s an idiot…”
I don’t think he’s an idiot, far from it. Still, facts are facts. We now have a record of 13-8, which is twice as many losses as we sustained the entire season last year. Sure, we had better personnel, including the best player in our history. But on the other hand, this year’s team is worse than its record. The majority of our wins have been against plainly inferior opposition. There has not been one time in the last six weeks that we beat good competition, and at least three times I can recall, including last night, there were segments of the game in which we were humiliated. We are now 2-5 for 2010, with by far the hardest part of our conference schedule still to come.
It could not have been the case that ALL the high school scouting services were taken in. We have five freshmen, all of whom were in the top 50; one was in the top ten (maybe the top five) and another was in the top 25. We have two seniors who started for a significant portion of their careers. We have a sophomore who last year (and, mostly, this year as well) was regarded as a sure-fire NBA prospect.
All of this has produced a team that has no realistic chance of making the NCAAT and theatens to become one of the worst teams in a quarter century.
All that STILL does not make Roy an idiot. But you cannot be looking at the same games I am and think that he has done a good job with these players.
It happens. There is no such thing as a perfect coach. But there’s no use to denying the reality of what shows up on your tube, and that is a team that’s playing poorly on offense and defense, can’t get the basics right, and IS GETTING WORSE.
“…and we deserve better than the job he’s done this year? I just don’t buy that one bit. I think, at least judging from his public comments, he’s been extremely patient with this group.”
Carolina deserves better than what I’ve been seeing; I’d swear to that in court. Of course (and not to be smarmy about it), it wouldn’t take a whole lot to be better. Just being competitive at home would do. And Roy’s patience is not the test. With a group thought by the experts to be quite talented, SUCCESS is the test. To say that this team has fallen short of that standard hardly captures it.
scl11,
Gerald Henderson, Duke, March 8 2008; Deron Washington, Va Tech February 16 2008; Kyle Weaver WSU, March 27, 2008; Al Thorton FSU, March 9, 2007; Jamar Butler ,tOSU, Nov. 28, 2007; Jonathan Taverni, Nov. 24, 2007; AD Vassallo, Feb. 16th, 2008; DeMarcus Nelson, Duke, Mar. 4, 2007. Those are the time he defended or helped defend a good player with positive results.
Now, am I saying he is the best defender in all of college basketball? No, but he is the best perimeter defender UNC has.
Tar Heel Fan,
While good defense is a really sum of all parts of the team on the court. There are some ways you can quantify defense. Field goal percentage of players against certain defenders. While a good shot blocker could explain it, the low percentage without such a fire breathing big man could show that a player is good at defending. I mean look at Bruce Bowen. He was a very good defender.
^Did you really bring up results from 2008 to justify a player’s playing time for this season? If that is the case I’ve just solved all our problems in this new fantasy land, Ty Lawson and Wayne Ellington have been cleared by the NCAA to use their 4th year of eligibility to play the remainder of the season with the 2010 Tar Heels. They suit up Thursday vs. VPI, NCAAT here we come.
/unicorn talk
scl1,
you asked for examples. i gave you examples, but if you want to stomp around like a little kid while pissing and moaning go ahead. I am not standing in your way.
Yes examples from 2 years ago, support your point that “We have seen Ginyard do well defensively against some of the better players in college basketball.”, but what do they have to do with justifying his playing time this season?
I also saw Watts score > 20pts in a game while playing at Durham Jordan High School in 2008, so maybe he should also be getting 25+ minutes a game too.
Outside of his performance before his injury, I agree all evidence points to his benching. However, if the alternative is starting a guy who shoots 37% and isn’t quick enough to defend the wing. I am not sure what the option. I agree that we have to start Strickland. I am just not happy with the alternative to Ginyard. I would prefer Ginyard, not throwing the ball three rows into the stands, starting over Graves any day. Unfortunately, we are stuck with a crappy Marcus Ginyard. Outside of starting Henson, I am not 100% certain what the right option in.