The problem with this game is that it was not an abberation. It was a repetition.
We have to concentrate on next season because to concentrate on this one is masochistic to the point of psychotic.
The talent here is less than expected, but it’s better than it’s been playing. If Roy can coach worse than this, I haven’t yet seen it, and hope not to.
Not a great game, but I STILL have hope. Yep, it’s true. I really believe that sometime, something is going to spark in someone and this team will get inspired. We can save the season. I don’t know how, or who, or when, but I know we can. I don’t care what any of you say, I still have faith in this team. I am going to support them until the very end. I am going to watch every game, post on the blog as much as I can and sport my colors loud and proud. I have hope, and despite all that has happened, I believe. I saw flashes of brilliance, and some great effort. We CAN turn this around. Maybe not all the way, but at least part of the way. Something will happen. I know it.
Today has been so monumentally bad in smallandpetty world that I knew how the game would turn out before it started. Ginyard and Thompson should be forced to walk home. Drew II and Strickland should have to dribble basketballs from now until next week. Graves should have to skip breakfast for about a month. And Roy should have to call a timeout sometime soon.
GT was way more physical than us. They looked like huge Men compared to us tonight. We have problems with full court press. We have problems with free throw shooting.
Honestly Roy didn’t seem too upset during the game, not as upset as I’d thought he’d be.
I am not always happy about not using timeouts but I don’t really think a time out would have helped tonight.
These guys will get it together hopefully sooner than later.
As bad as that………as that……..as that just was, I am not down on the entire freshman class. Strickland and Henson, along with Zeller, will give us three above-average ACC players next year–but none of them will necessarily be a superstar.
If Barnes is the kinda guy who can come in as a freshman and be The Man immediately, we will be right back toward the top of the conference, even with average point guard play. If we get that version of Barnes, and Davis comes back, we can win the ACC and go deep in the tournament.
If Barnes is not the guy who will create and take the tough shot down the stretch, and we lose Ed, we could be middle of the pack…
This game was so bad it made me do something that I can’t recall ever doing: turning the channel from a Carolina game.
THF as I’ve said before I love what you’ve created here. Not that this particularly matters a whole lot, but the tone in the comments has gotten to a point that it’s becoming unpleasant to visit the site and I’ve been finding myself doing that less and less. Because of that, I was glad to see what you had to say in the comments section of the previous thread. These are of course tough times for the basketball team, but I can only hope that the tone of the comments can get on a more even keel as things go along.
Great job by Henson tonight. It looks like he’s playing less “headsy” and just going out there to do his thing. He’s still a little limited by his lack of a physical frame for a PF, but he’s progressing. I just wish he would work on the free throws a little more so teams will be more hesitant on fouling him when he gets the ball down low. Other than that, he has the potential to be a special player for us.
I owe THF and the rest of the board an apology; my “waterboy” comments about Deon and Marcus during the live chat was unacceptable; I think it’s fair to criticize play on the court, but those comments were absolutely stupid on my part. I’m supposed to be supporting the team on the court, not tearing them down like that.
If I offended anyone, I apologize. It won’t happen again.
thank god i wasn’t on the live blog, my TV got an ear full though….
everyone here feels the same…we’re passionate sports and carolina fans…it happens and i simply don’t read the live blogs b/c it’s where everyone gripes and b*tches and moans….it’s comments that run through all of our heads during the game.
afterwards when we can step back, this team still really is bad. i just don’t know where to turn to blame. i’m still shocked when i see people who just bash roy…give me a break. here is how i see it, in a slightly positive manner.
2005 we won the title, lost our first 7 guys in an 8 man rotation…were expected to not be anywhere close to top 25. 2006 we were great overachieving underdogs led by great leadership and tyler hansbrough. 2009 we win the championship, lose said tyler hansbrough as well as 3 other nba players and one more to graduation. so people overshot what they thought we’d be this year. then, this year happens. we would be on pace to be just fine really….ed would be playing better, Z would be making contributions, and the team would be kicking into gear about now for a hopeful run at an ncaa bid. that’s what teams who are not predicted to be in the top 25 do. toss in injuries to ed, to zeller, to ginyard, (and now to wear as well), and it’s a different story. now we suck. i don’t think it’s the kids fault or the coaching or the recruiting.
for the players, we can’t blame deon and marcus and graves for being less than acc caliber talent and being on the court. it’s not their fault their in the game. the freshmen just aren’t stepping up to take their spots. i can’t blame roy for playing only our top 7 from the getgo this year, b/c even though our freshman might ahve a ways to go, this isn’t our year to win it all, so why not bring them along. i ALSO can’t blame him for not simply benching ALL upper classmen solely for the purpose of developing young guys.
the thing with recruiting is (of course i am but a spectator), most of the top guys are gone after a year, maybe two. maybe, just maybe, this is a great class. maybe it’s a great class b/c we WONT be awesome next year…thus why get guys who are around one or two years. that could be way off, but i don’t think we whiffed on this class….i think the wears will be better seniors than deon, and mcdonald, well, maybe a frasor type. still, if UK doesn’t win it this year their losing 4 starters, that hurts and it’s hard to build a program that way.
i don’t know, i think it might be too instant gratification to say let’s get all one and dones just to have decent years w/ no real program building. and that’s if we even COULD have had a shot at any of the top guys htis year. we got henson, which surely dissuaded some other bigs, plus the return of ed and deon and zeller….for guards, that could be the biggest miss…but we had larry and dexter signed, and we probably should have gotten one more TOP guard. other than that, like a few have mentioned, it’s hard to land top notch blue chips when you have a team of studs that MIGHT stay together. players are signing long before the team (usually, not for wall for example) wins a championship and it’s clear that wayne is MOP and Ty is best PG ever and both are going pro.
anyways, not sure if that is a silver lining or not, but i think we have to put it into perspective, we might just be one more year off our timeline of instant return to domination.
I understand the policy behind not bashing the players: they are just kids and don’t deserve it. The problem is that Roy, by many of his comments, has pretty squarely placed the blame on them. By saying that they aren’t playing with intensity and that he needs to find a way to motivate them, it is clear that, in Roy’s mind, they are the problem.
I would agree with Roy that the players need to play. On the other hand, it was Roy that brought these players to Chapel Hill.
In the end, for the purposes of our discussion, I understand why it is probably hard for some to hold back criticism of the players.
This team is what it is. This season is what it is. It is a lost season in that this team has not shown any marked improvement in so many areas that they are just not competetive even in a weakened ACC. You can “if” and “but” and grasp at any straw that you wish but this will remain a most forgettable team in a most forgettable season for the players, the coaches and we, the fans and alums spoiled by past successes. There will be no March Madness for Tarheel Nation this year.
But we will all survive and look forward to next year. Hey, we can still pull against Dook in all their remaining games!
Go Heels!!
Roy put together a bad team. Thats really what it boils down too. Everybody knew who was leaving last year, everybody knew the needs that had to be addressed this year. Roy didn’t address them. We knew we had to replace a fantastic PG… Roy didn’t recruit one. We knew we had to replace three great outside shooters… Roy didn’t recruit any. We knew we had to replace a big, tough, physical forward…Roy didn’t recruit one. It’s mind boggling. Five recruits – and none of them filled the needs that we knew we were going to have to fill this year. I really can’t imagine what Roy was thinking when he put this team together.
really don’t have an explanation for last night other than the Forrest Gump line, but the fact is they played a good (highly motivated) Duke team eye to eye for three-quarters of a game, so I know the basis for a good team is in there somewhere. And yes, except for Henson it was a complete breakdown last night.
I agree with your standards THF-there are “options” for the ones who don’t.
This is hard on everyone who wears Carolina Blue, but the ride back to the top will be a lot of fun. To be honest, Roy just didn’t get it done this year. It’s his job to pick the right mix of players. He’s got a huge budget to work with in the form of highly valued scholarships and one of the best brands in sports. He dropped the ball big time this season. But he’ll get it back!
This game looked like a “men against boys” game to me at least from a physical standpoint. And when the men are as talented as the boys, it’s over. Henson fought hard but how many dunks did Favors have last night?
The part that just makes my head shake is the poor shooting by the team in general, even when wide open and the decision making (or lack thereof) of Drew. I love the guy because he is a Tar Heel but he has regressed and appears to be intimidated in the lane.
I still hold out hope the guys can win a few down the stretch, just to get some momemtum going into next year.
Also, I found Henson’s following post-game remarks interesting:
How much trouble did Tech’s big guys give you tonight?
“It was trouble. It would be trouble for anybody. But I think we handled it alright, as best as we could. We just came up short.”
On being able to come back against Tech in the first meeting:
“The way they play, if you play right, they press the whole game, you can come back easily. But, unfortunately, we couldn’t do that and came up short.”
I didn’t see the interview, but I can almost imagine him shrugging his shoulders when he says “we just came up short” – two times. This poor team is lost and in desperate need of a leader.
Roy said that of the 15 first half turnovers, only one was against their press.
the way Henson played last night goes to exactly what i find so perplexing. he played…”naturally”, if you will. he played within himself and within the flow of the game. in his what…3rd game at the 4 position?
why havent we seen a gradual upward curve of Drew or Strick or whoever, playing within themselves, letting the game come to them, playing with more and more comfort as each game is logged? after this many games, practices, something should just HAPPEN, even subconsciously.
“oh, this is how fast the opponents are. oh, these are the angles i need to take. oh, that kind of pass is not going to work at this level, oh, he’s not open, but there’s plenty of time to cycle it around again” and on and on.
how can Henson do it, in short order, and not the others?
not perfection, not amazing poise, but just SOME consistent feeling of comfort. it was like everyone else was playing their first game together.
its a headscratcher.
i have a hard time laying more of the “blame” on Roy. his way has sunk in with most every other team. why not this one? you can transmit all you want, it has to be recieved. i guess what the “its Roy’s fault” people are saying is that he brought in rotten receptors.
I think its crazy to blame Roy’s recruiting for this bad year. These were all top recruits comming in. Where were you at the beginning on the season. All I heard was “tied with Dook”, “top 5″, “big strong team”. Its hard to recruit specific needs when you do not know who is going to leave early. What if Lawson had not been here last year. By the time he would have declared it would have been too late to find a top PG. What if Ed Davis leaves this year, its already too late to find a replacement. And most players do not make an impact their first year.
This class is overrated. I think they will be better in 2 years. I think next year will be a struggle too. People are expecting again the world of the incomming class. There is still no muscle. And if Davis goes, that will leave a big hole in the middle.
The players need to play. Stop the stupid turnovers, make a layup, hit a jump shot, make a free throw. Maybe Roy should work on those basics more with the team. The upperclassmen are not very good and not showing leadership, until we can get that, the Heels must rebuild.
I had to stop watching last night, first it was getting late, and I knew it wasn’t going to get any better.
I can’t remember the last team I saw shoot so cold as last night. The turnovers were a lack of discipline, a lack of confidence. So too was the poor shooting. I don’t know what snaps these guys out of their funk, it just seems so obvious but it’s so hard to break the pattern. I really think they have good players and a good coach, but this is that ultimate intangible.
A Roy William’s coached team held an opponent to 68 points and lost by 17, that my friends is all you need to know.
“we might just be one more year off our timeline of instant return to domination.”
Alot of quitters (yes that is a strong word, but that is what this team did last night) coming back next season, so may be more than one year. As I said before, Barnes and Bullock will have to be Kobe Bryant and Ray Allen good to clean up this mess. There isn’t a magic bullet for fixing a lack of heart, effort, and fortitude. Forget about all the non-ACC caliber talent on the roster, a lack of fight is this team’s main problem.
These might be very good recruits, but they don’t fill the needs that we knew needed to be filled this year. We needed to replace a dynamic, mistake free point guard, two extremely accurate outside shooters and a strong, physical, bruising presence in the post. None of these five guys fill those roles. Its like if you are the coach of a football team and you lose 2 WRs, a QB and a RB to the NFL draft and you replace them with three 4 star O linemen and a 5 star linebacker. Hey – those guys are great, but they’re not what you needed.
Couple that with the fact that there were no unexpected departures last year (Ellington and Lawson auditioned for the draft at the end of their sophomore years, and didn’t withdraw from the draft until very late in the process – - that is as strong a signal as you can send that you aren’t coming back after the end of your junior year) That makes it really difficult to understand how Roy thought the players he was bringing in were going to fill the roles of the players who were going out.
excellent point 850, doesn’t mean this recruiting class still won’t be successful, but they were definitely the wrong pieces to the puzzle if Carolina was going to be successful this season.
“We knew we had to replace a fantastic PG… Roy didn’t recruit one. We knew we had to replace three great outside shooters… Roy didn’t recruit any.”
Kendall Marshall: 5-Star PG.
Reggie Bullock: 5-star SG. Possibly the best shooter in the class.
Harrison Barnes: Best player in the class. Possible the most heralded recruit UNC has ever signed.
Building a great team is very rarely done with one recruiting class, and it is virtually impossible to bring in multiple 5-star players in every single class. 4-star recruits are rarely-to-never instant impact players, but can often develop into very good college players and provide a stable base for the 5-star talents to play off of.
Also, this freshman class (nationally), aside from Henry, is fairly bereft of good outside shooters, so who was Roy supposed to recruit? Don’t forget, you start recruiting classes 2-3 (or more) years in advance, so yeah, last year it was somewhat obvious that Ellington was going to go out, but it wasn’t 2 years ago. If Ellington hadn’t gone off in the NCAAT, there was probably a better than 50/50 shot he would have come back. Personally, I’m glad he went off…
They just need to get tougher and mature. The question is whether they happens in the offseason or not. As for replacing what they lost. Everyone thought Ed Davis was going to be a beast and he has not been. Zeller got hurt and could have been effective. Still we knew the issues would be there on the perimeter but I am not sure we were prepared for how bad of a ballhandling team this crew ended up being. The chief problem as articulated by Roy is he has never had to coach effort until this season. I also think the players have not done enough to learn what they are supposed to do out there or are not listening to fundamental instructions.
Maybe the offseason improves some of this stuff but it does look like there will be a ton riding on Barnes and Bullock in particular but also on Marshall to be good out of the gate.
I thought Adam Lucas, as usual, puts the game into perspective in the final moments of his article this a.m. I know this year has been incredibly dissappointing but I feel much, much worse for the players. Here is the link and the paragraphs in question: http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/021710aac.html
As frustrating as it is to watch, it’s infinitely more wearisome to live through it. Nearly a half-hour after the game, senior Deon Thompson returned from the training room, where he had taken three stitches in his lip. More than perhaps any other player, Thompson was looking forward to this season. He talked giddily of returning to the Final Four, of adding another banner to his career haul. Sure, you can scoff at that now, but he wasn’t alone. Those dreams have all but evaporated now.
As Thompson rounded a corner in the Alexander Memorial Coliseum labyrinth, he came upon Williams. The big man, still clad in his uniform, said nothing. He just sank into his coach, with Williams wrapping his arms around Thompson and clapping him on the back several times. Both have been called upon to try and explain this season to the public, to tell us what’s going wrong, how it feels, or how they’re going to fix it. Both have been upbeat and resolute.
Now, though, they just hugged. Neither man said anything. There was nothing left to say.
C.Michael and THF – you both make very good points. I am now resigned to the fact that we are looking at a multiyear rebuilding process that is fraught with uncertainty. It is contingent upon the current players being exponentially better (not just better – EXPONENTIALLY better) next year. It is contingent upon three freshmen being able to make an immediate, and huge, impact on this team. It’s probably also contingent upon Barnes sticking around for another year and McAdoo being as good (or better) then advertised. If none of those contingencies are met, then the road back to the top really becomes uncertain and future becomes very cloudy…
This season feels worse than the 8-20 season. I knew that season was going to be horrible. But this team has more talent, they have Roy instead of Doh, and the ACC is terrible this year. The only thing that is good is that Carolina won it all last year. If that had not happened, this season would be unbearable. Now it just feels like it is one to just throw away and forget about.
^To be fair, both the 2005 and 2009 were multi-year processes, too. Yes, the 2006 season was much better than this season, but that freshman class alone was not going to make them a title contender. The infusion of the next class instantly did.
In the case of the 2005 team, it took two recruiting classes and a year of playing together (growth) to become a title contender.
If I had to guess, we are looking at something in between next year. Maybe not a 1-seed, like the 2007 was, but probably not a 6-seed like the 2004 team was.
^^How sad is it that Carolina is now in the same boat as N.C. State with hoping the incoming recruits save the program. Isn’t it funny that not too long ago we all thought Duke was the program that had to have Harrison Barnes. How wrong were those assumptions?
Look I love Roy as much as anyone–he is a wonderful coach, I don’t want anyone else to lead this program. But that being said, when are folks going to realize that he is the master of hyperbole? Just because he says he has never had to coach effort, doesn’t mean that he hasn’t said the same thing before. Here’s a quote:
“Says Williams, “With almost all of my teams I’ve coached mostly execution, but with this team I’ve had to coach effort.
From last night? No from 2004.
We will get there. We will get there with these players. They are good albeit overwhelmed players.
The good thing is it is just one bad season. Carolina has two titles in the last five years. I think next year will be a struggle, too, but not as much. In two years, though, the Heels will be back in the title hunt.
^^^Not just Roy, I think you have to have a Masters in hyperbole in order to be a big time coach. Probably why so many of them do well (for themselves) as announcers. (e.g. Dick Vitale and Digger Phelps, to name a few…)
“It’s frustrating. I can’t put my finger on why it is. Sometimes when we’re out there we just play scared. We don’t want to go to the hole or attack or shoot the ball. I think guys are out there trying to please other people instead of looking at the floor and what’s really going on.”
uh, what?
and this summer, i think i’d like to see LD stay here and workout with the guys, not out in california.
So… how does LD2 expect guys to attack or shoot the ball when they don’t have the ball because he didn’t give them the ball because he turned the ball over 8 times? Weak.
I am not sure who the “other people” are. The only people these guys should worry about pleasing are the ones in the suits sitting on the UNC bench and their fellow Tar Heels. You cannot worry about pleasing the fan base or boosters or anyone outside the team. Focus on the task you have been given and do what the coach tells you to do with as much heart and effort as you can muster.
As for being aggressive I thought Drew did a good job being aggressive, getting into the lane. The problem is he then makes an ill advised pass when he should shoot a runner or when he does need to make a pass it is the wrong pass, the wrong direction or he is surrounded by five opposing players.
good question – - because the other people who he did pass the ball to – you know, the ones who play for Ga Tech? They did a great job attacking the basket and shooting…
I didn’t see a single second of this game. First game I’ve completely missed in my life. I can’t keep abusing myself by watching this team this year. It’s like they are using replacement players right now. Henson’s line looks nice but 1-7 from the line? Really? Jesus. This team has been putrid in every aspect of the game this year.
And I see now that Drew went 2-7 from the line. This team can’t score as it is but when you are being given free points you have to convert. And 8 turnovers for Drew. Horrible.
I’ve truly never been as embarassed (sp?) as a Tar Heel fan as I was last night. It is simply dumbfounding to go from the dominance I felt last year to the humiliation of this year. I don’t say humiliation in a pejorative way. I think a true fan is willing to be humiliated with his/her team – be there for the good and the bad. But I don’t know that I have ever felt such a dramatic shift in sentiment in such a short time (sports-related of course). This morning I wondered if it was some sort of basketball Karma for the way we abused the tournament last year.
On a side note, I will say that the ‘censoring’ of the live blog yesterday was somewhat disturbing. It had a ring of the Chinese communist government way of doing things. I respect the fact that THF doesn’t wish for the blog to degenerate into foul-mouthed, personal-in-nature attacks on players or other bloggers. And maybe I don’t know the whole story, but hoping for a player to transfer b/c he is playing horrifically, while I might not agree, doesn’t appear to rise to that level. We can all sit around and say communism is good and or ways it could be improved or shut up. Saying that you wish someone would transfer could simply be interpreted as ‘if you’re not going to be proud to play with that jersey and you’re not going to give it your all, then do us a favor and play elsewhere.’ Plus, this is a blog. No one here is the assistant coach so there’s no heightened interest to protect the players from a lot of criticism. A blog is somewhat equivalent to an editorial section of a newspaper. People are free to criticize political figures and ask them to resign as long as there are no profane, childish comments. But then again, it’s your blog. And it’s a private one. I’m just saying.
Lastly, I’m convinced that the team does not have an x’s and o’s problem, but a head problem. Obviously, it is not uncommon in sports for players/teams/coaches to go through slumps and hit some walls. I don’t think Roy is this bad and I don’t think the players are this bad. They didn’t start the year this way and they weren’t this way when facing other high level competition in AAU tournaments, etc., etc. A player like John Henson doesn’t come into college so highly touted and nearly airball every free throw he puts up. It’s not possible to not be able to run a decent inbounds play. This is a mental problem. After hearing Roy talk and reading his book, he doesn’t appear to be much into that sort of thing like a Phil Jackson who teaches his players to meditate and practice imaging before games. These guys need an external stimulus/factor. Roy needs it. He has checked out. You could see it last night. I can’t necessarily blame him. It’s human. They need to put down the basketballs and talk. They needs sports psychologists to come in and talk to them. They don’t need anymore practice. They know how to play basketball. They’ve lost something much more than that. Confidence building exercises, go out in the woods, group up, and fall and catch one another. Something. A field trip to the zoo (kidding). Some external factor b/c I think the group from top to bottom is too tainted at this point.
Again, I see plenty of potential and talent on the team but HealtotheEnd makes a good pint. I think he and Davis went off on their own for training. While, as far as I can tell, they seem to not be in-fighting much, they for better or worse lack confidence and aggressiveness as a unit just as much as they lack communication and cohesion on the floor.
It’s hard to get down on anyone too much. I don’t a lot of individual failures, but a lot of mistakes doing the little things and among players.
Heels_44, I don’t feel up to reading your whole post but I browsed it and I do think a little of their trouble could be mental. But with each passing game I am really beginning to wonder if the talent is there. This class could be a complete wash sans Henson.
There are many troubling things that came out of this last game. The coach was blaming the players for their lack of effort, while the players were taking digs at the coaching staff (that’s what I read in LD2 and Henson’s comments). There is trouble brewing and one just cannot exonerate the coaching staff from all blame. Sure they were desperate but not calling time outs to stop a run, pursuing with this run-and-gun mentality when the players have problems pushing the ball up are coaching problems. The team did quite well at the end when they slowed the game down and started executing set plays. Frankly Roy Williams should have realized several games ago that he does not have the players to execute his precious system and started coaching half-court plays. Now that this is a losing season he is blaming the players for their lack of effort, that is just not right.
Okay, first of all THF is not a government entity empowered with protecting or providing free speech. This is a privately owned blog. There are rules. There are also logistical circumstances as well such as the fact I alone am charged with moderating a live blog and the flow of comments got to a point where I simply had enough of watching the garbage spew by. And yes, wishing for a player to leave the program because his performance level has not been as good as you hoped is disrespectful to the player and the program. I imagine the same thing could have been said about Quentin Thomas during his first three years and had he listened to that advice UNC would have been royally screwed for the last half of the 2008 regular season since your starting PG would have been Marcus Ginyard.
Besides that, Inside Carolina has similar rules and bans people who cross certain lines. I probably draw the line sooner than they do because I an trying to get things above board.
“Frankly Roy Williams should have realized several games ago that he does not have the players to execute his precious system and started coaching half-court plays. Now that this is a losing season he is blaming the players for their lack of effort, that is just not right.”
How do you know that has not happened? What goes on in practice is not publicly known so for all we know he has tried various things in practice that have not worked. He has admitted that there are some things they normally do which have been left out because this team could not do it. I am not saying Roy is absolved from blame. Certain personnel moves are in question obviously and the utilization of Henson at the three obviously did not work. However, players still have to play, execute, focus and do their jobs. We are not talking about overly complex plays they cannot execute. Basic crap like 2 on 1 breaks are suspect. Entry passes to the post. Poor spacing. No movement off the ball. In other words I think Roy has coached the Xs and Os to them they are simply not performing on the court. Now you can certainly question the personnel and the fit of certain players in certain positions. Not to mention the injuries are not helping this team find any sort of identity either.
@Makhtar: This team does not have half court plays, period. This team revolves around the PG pushing the ball up the court to the basket and then create plays. That’s the “system”, one dimensional at one speed and very reliant on PG play. Unfortunately, this PG has problem handling the ball at that speed, he is just not skilled enough. Moreover he is not gutsy enough to play within himself, because that will annoy the coach. Therefore you have the team rushing the ball up court and then they have a problem because either they turn it over (that’s a skill issue) or they just don’t have people to shoot the ball. A team like this needs to slow down. I would much rather watch this team playing a slow half-court game, execute half-court sets and score 50 points, than having it run up at break-neck speeds, turn the ball over and end up scoring 50 points just the same.
THF a lot of the problems you say is because of the one-dimensional aspect of the game. This team is expected to play at two speeds fast and very fast. Not all players are that fast. The ball handlers are not that fast and they are obviously not skilled enough to handle the ball at that speed. You are right there are problems with personnel too. How many times have you seen Deon Thompson (I bring his name up because he is the senior and has no excuse) in position or fighting for position? Larry Drew plays better against slower teams. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and play slow, that’s not happening. What’s happening now is due to a crisis of confidence. These players have no confidence in their abilities anymore.
@carolinablue….I see what you are saying about slowing the game down but this team does not have the skills to do that either. I am having serious doubts about the talent of these kids. I hope the talent is only looking weak because the confidence is not there.
The pressure is really building on the next class because they are going to have to step in at many spots and carry the load.
“This team does not have half court plays, period. This team revolves around the PG pushing the ball up the court to the basket and then create plays.”
Not accurate. First the PG and the rest of the team should play fast and not in a hurry, and most times this team plays in a hurry, even in the half court sets. Secondly, the Roy Williams system has the PG push or pass the ball up court as quickly as possible, and if a transition opportunity is not available then they run the secondary break which are half court plays that the have multiple scoring options (both in the post and on the perimeter) and requires the players to recognize certain keys or mismatches to determine the best areas to attack on the defense. If the team does not get an opportunity via the secondary break then the team should flow into their motion offense and call a specific set or play. Carolina has multiple sets and plays that they run in the half court and Roy has tried all of them in addition to installing a new half court offense that he hoped would take advantage of Carolina’s passing ability of their Bigs. Every half court play in the Carolina system has been thrown at the problem unsuccessfully.
So by looking at the abilities of this team on offense what new half court sets do you propose that haven’t been tried. Maybe they should try the Flex offense or Dribble Drive vs. the Motion Offense? Personally, I think this team’s offensive deficiencies and lack of personnel on that side of the ball are more of the problem than slowing it down and calling more half court plays (which they are doing already). The majority of the turnovers last night were in the half court and unrelated to trying to play faster.
Therefore, like I mentioned before the only alternative is to scrap the whole Carolina motion offense for something else like the flex or dribble drive, which imhop would be a big mistake considering Roy needs to be laying the foundation of his system with the young guys so they can contribute when Roy finally does have the horses in the next two seasons to run the Carolina break and half court sets more effectively. If this team was a different offensive set away from winning basketball games I guess I may tend to agree with scrapping the whole system, but this team is so far off base from winning that I do not agree in mortgaging the future to play a different version of mediocre / bad basketball this season.
Plus, Roy has to coach and teach what he knows. Obviously he knows other offenses since he has to teach his team to defend them but trying to coach the intricacies of a new system at this stage would be a disaster. Based on what I have heard, these freshmen have had a very difficult time grasping the system now. Might as well stick with it and hope they get on board for next season than throw something new out there.
THF, I wish I could share your optimism towards LD2, with him @ the helm, do you see us returning to glory, or are thinking that we need someone else to takes us there?
I am really hard on Larry because he is the PG @ UNC; but he also is playing with less talented players then TY or Ray, and both TY and Ray are remembered for their JR years, and not their Fresh or Soph years.
Larry will be a junior next yr, but we need to take a huge step from a PG standpoint.
think about what Roy and the assistants must be doing, must have BEEN doing since game 1 of the year.
examining every trip down the court. knowing where everyone was supposed to be, and when. having an opinion on when the best time to throw a pass is and what type of pass.
every time LD2, runs down and does X, they can say…Will isnt spaced right, Deon isnt deep enough, doesnt have his man sealed, Travis should be here, or screening harder, LD should rub off closer, that pass was too soft, too low, on and on.
i cant IMAGINE the bunch of them looking at film for the last 20 years and not knowing exactly what isnt right about a set or positioning.
so what, they cant tell LD and Deon and Marcus EXACTLY where they should be, and what they should do? just like they did every day with Tyler and Wayne and Ty and Ray and Sean and Jawad, and every day at Kansas? i dont believe it.
“I am really hard on Larry because he is the PG @ UNC; but he also is playing with less talented players then TY or Ray, and both TY and Ray are remembered for their JR years, and not their Fresh or Soph years.”
Ray and Ty were also 5-star PGs. I’ve been pretty clear that I think that LDII can be a very solid PG on the ACC-level, with a full year’s experience and better players on the perimeter, but to expect him to be at Ray and Ty’s level is probably not realistic. It might not be until LDII is a senior and Marshall is a sophomore that UNC has its PGs (combined) performing at the level we saw in 2005 or 2009.
Its not the lack of assists that is making LD2 a liability on many nights – its the abundance of turnovers. It also doesn’t help that he’s not a great scorer.
so…LD2 is or isnt a better passer? is or isnt pass first? 6 assists without those guys is 6 assists.
so…without the TOs, he’s getting 9 assists?
my main point is about the coaching staff. they can see the plays and positioning in their sleep. its like breathing to them. there’s no way they arent delivering the message.
i dont know what to make of it yet. just asking out loud.
LD2 is on pace, even with the 8 last night, of having 18 more TOs than Ty did last year, in a 16 game conference schedule.
sure, 7 more pts a game by Ty makes a difference. but who youre throwing it to would also. i dont think its a stretch that Ty wouldnt get 6 assists with this team if he’s also scoring 16ppg.
^To me, Larry is a pass-first PG who is playing with a team that is bereft of players with exceptional offensive skills, especially on the perimeter. That is a tough combination, but fortunately, that should not be the case next year.
^ which by virtue of that necessity (forcing him to be more offensive minded) theoretically should benefit him going into next season…and I think it will.
LD2 has the stats to seem like a decent PG in the ACC, but right now I can not say he is better than any PG in the ACC not wearing a NC state uni.
Larry needs to lead, not just play PG. If he need an explain, just watch last yrs tape of the Duke game. He doesnt have to be Ty, but he DOES has to lead like Tywon did.
“But that just raises another, very obvious question.”
Which gets back to the idea that it is not always possible to have a complete team year in, and year out, and it is not as easy as saying, “Roy should have recruited differently for this year.” There are a number of things that led up to this, not the least of which is the fact that UNC signed 11 players in the 2005 and 2006 classes. As great as those classes were, that only left Roy with one scholarship for what is now the junior class, which Roy had to offer to Love because neither Hansbrough nor Wright were locks to be (or even expected to be) around for the 2007-08 season. Maybe he shouldn’t have made an offer to Copeland or signed both Stepheson and Thompson, but that is hindsight at its worst.
In terms of recruiting for this current class, there are really two things that hurt UNC: first, when he started recruiting these players (2-3 years ago) most analysts expected Ellington to be on the roster for his senior year. Second, the number of great shooters/scorers available nationally, was pretty low. Even the top PGs (Bradley and Wall), aren’t known as great shooters.
*we’ll go back to Wayne being MUCH less than expected (and that’s being nice if you go back & search), and Danny making incredibly bone-headed plays, both their Soph years
*Henson was being thoroughly trashed just 3 short weeks ago (which when he shows some inconsistency, he no doubt will be again)
Ever notice that as soon as LD crosses the haft court line that he is going to pass the ball to somebody right then? Its usually to the other team cause they know he’s going to do it every time….
^ People who trashed Henson seem to forget that he never played the 3 spot, that was decision made by the coaching staff. He always belonged to the 4 spot. That was an experiment that went horribly wrong. Right now the major worry for all UNC fans is what will Henson’s decision be end of this year. If Henson and Davis (Ed is very high probability) both leave we will have a thin front court.
^^thats funny, i actually have found myself thinking LD looks to pass, passes that dont seem to be significant, instead of dribbling the perimeter. i wondered if i was just making something out of nothing.
” Right now the major worry for all UNC fans is what will Henson’s decision be end of this year. If Henson and Davis (Ed is very high probability) both leave we will have a thin front court.”
I don’t mean to sound too harsh, but if a player’s preference is to go to the league when they are vastly unprepared and unable to make an impact just so they can get a fat check then I say please go. Because if they are more interested in just a check vs. being the best players they can be along with being prepared to have productive careers in the NBA then most likely we would still be talking about “potential” instead of production in their future years in Chapel Hill.
If either Davis or Henson thinks that their play has justified a NBA contract or that either is ready to contribute in the NBA now, then these two staying would only be a detriment to next season’s team.
I really am starting to worry about Henson leaving after this year, because he has said, once he is a lottery pick, he is gone. I know people think the NBA is crazy to pick him, but there are not a lot players that are 6 10 and can handle the ball and run the floor.
Once John gets any offense other than dunking, watch out!!! hopefully we will see that during his time with the heels.
Last night was horrible, but the block that John had on the dunk, and the one he had against the guy who posted him up, will be get him noticed.
” I know people think the NBA is crazy to pick him, but there are not a lot players that are 6 10 and can handle the ball and run the floor.”
You forgot able to air ball a free throw, bobble passes around the basket, get pushed around in the paint, has zero post moves, and is as weak as a 15 year old girl.
I love Henson and his potential, but the kid is not even ready to play in Europe much less the NBA. When I think about Davis and Henson leaving for the NBA I’m reminded of Doug Moe’s comment to Roy when discussing the possibility of McCants, Felton, and May going pro after the 2004 season: “Who would want them?”.
I don’t think I see the bright spots of Henson that some of you see. He is the least comfortable offensive player I can recall ever seeing in a Carolina uniform – and that dates back to Warren Martin and/or Timo Makkonen as freshmen. He is completely lost on the offensive end – he doesn’t catch the ball well, he has no concept of where he is, or where to be, and he shoots the ball differently every time. I can’t even watch him at the free throw line. I thought earlier in the season that he just panicked when he got the ball, but as his minutes increase this doesn’t get better. He is enormously talented athletically, but in my opinion he has an awful lot of work to do to be even a servicable player on offense. Not really that uncommon in kids who have always just been so much taller and athletic than other kids that they’ve never had to really learn the game, but, as you can see, that’s not the case any more. Reminds me in some ways of the Hawks Josh Smith, who showed up in Atlanta with a ton of talent but no real basketball skills. Now, after a lot of work, he plays like an AllStar. I hope Henson is willing to work. He seems like pleasant, if shellshocked, guy.
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The problem with this game is that it was not an abberation. It was a repetition.
We have to concentrate on next season because to concentrate on this one is masochistic to the point of psychotic.
The talent here is less than expected, but it’s better than it’s been playing. If Roy can coach worse than this, I haven’t yet seen it, and hope not to.
Not a great game, but I STILL have hope. Yep, it’s true. I really believe that sometime, something is going to spark in someone and this team will get inspired. We can save the season. I don’t know how, or who, or when, but I know we can. I don’t care what any of you say, I still have faith in this team. I am going to support them until the very end. I am going to watch every game, post on the blog as much as I can and sport my colors loud and proud. I have hope, and despite all that has happened, I believe. I saw flashes of brilliance, and some great effort. We CAN turn this around. Maybe not all the way, but at least part of the way. Something will happen. I know it.
Virginia could be the ACCT 7 seed, VT could be the 2 seed. if we can finish the 10 seed, thats not the worst pathway to the semis.
Henson the only player who shot more than 3 times, to shoot 50%.
a shame McDonald didnt have a stronger showing for his 21 minutes.
Today has been so monumentally bad in smallandpetty world that I knew how the game would turn out before it started. Ginyard and Thompson should be forced to walk home. Drew II and Strickland should have to dribble basketballs from now until next week. Graves should have to skip breakfast for about a month. And Roy should have to call a timeout sometime soon.
^dang, spp. hope youre still employed and your dog didnt die.
GT was way more physical than us. They looked like huge Men compared to us tonight. We have problems with full court press. We have problems with free throw shooting.
Honestly Roy didn’t seem too upset during the game, not as upset as I’d thought he’d be.
I am not always happy about not using timeouts but I don’t really think a time out would have helped tonight.
These guys will get it together hopefully sooner than later.
THF thanks for this blog. I love it!
As bad as that………as that……..as that just was, I am not down on the entire freshman class. Strickland and Henson, along with Zeller, will give us three above-average ACC players next year–but none of them will necessarily be a superstar.
If Barnes is the kinda guy who can come in as a freshman and be The Man immediately, we will be right back toward the top of the conference, even with average point guard play. If we get that version of Barnes, and Davis comes back, we can win the ACC and go deep in the tournament.
If Barnes is not the guy who will create and take the tough shot down the stretch, and we lose Ed, we could be middle of the pack…
why would Michael want to buy the Bobcats when they cant seem to beat the Nets…again.
This game was so bad it made me do something that I can’t recall ever doing: turning the channel from a Carolina game.
THF as I’ve said before I love what you’ve created here. Not that this particularly matters a whole lot, but the tone in the comments has gotten to a point that it’s becoming unpleasant to visit the site and I’ve been finding myself doing that less and less. Because of that, I was glad to see what you had to say in the comments section of the previous thread. These are of course tough times for the basketball team, but I can only hope that the tone of the comments can get on a more even keel as things go along.
Great job by Henson tonight. It looks like he’s playing less “headsy” and just going out there to do his thing. He’s still a little limited by his lack of a physical frame for a PF, but he’s progressing. I just wish he would work on the free throws a little more so teams will be more hesitant on fouling him when he gets the ball down low. Other than that, he has the potential to be a special player for us.
I owe THF and the rest of the board an apology; my “waterboy” comments about Deon and Marcus during the live chat was unacceptable; I think it’s fair to criticize play on the court, but those comments were absolutely stupid on my part. I’m supposed to be supporting the team on the court, not tearing them down like that.
If I offended anyone, I apologize. It won’t happen again.
thank god i wasn’t on the live blog, my TV got an ear full though….
everyone here feels the same…we’re passionate sports and carolina fans…it happens and i simply don’t read the live blogs b/c it’s where everyone gripes and b*tches and moans….it’s comments that run through all of our heads during the game.
afterwards when we can step back, this team still really is bad. i just don’t know where to turn to blame. i’m still shocked when i see people who just bash roy…give me a break. here is how i see it, in a slightly positive manner.
2005 we won the title, lost our first 7 guys in an 8 man rotation…were expected to not be anywhere close to top 25. 2006 we were great overachieving underdogs led by great leadership and tyler hansbrough. 2009 we win the championship, lose said tyler hansbrough as well as 3 other nba players and one more to graduation. so people overshot what they thought we’d be this year. then, this year happens. we would be on pace to be just fine really….ed would be playing better, Z would be making contributions, and the team would be kicking into gear about now for a hopeful run at an ncaa bid. that’s what teams who are not predicted to be in the top 25 do. toss in injuries to ed, to zeller, to ginyard, (and now to wear as well), and it’s a different story. now we suck. i don’t think it’s the kids fault or the coaching or the recruiting.
for the players, we can’t blame deon and marcus and graves for being less than acc caliber talent and being on the court. it’s not their fault their in the game. the freshmen just aren’t stepping up to take their spots. i can’t blame roy for playing only our top 7 from the getgo this year, b/c even though our freshman might ahve a ways to go, this isn’t our year to win it all, so why not bring them along. i ALSO can’t blame him for not simply benching ALL upper classmen solely for the purpose of developing young guys.
the thing with recruiting is (of course i am but a spectator), most of the top guys are gone after a year, maybe two. maybe, just maybe, this is a great class. maybe it’s a great class b/c we WONT be awesome next year…thus why get guys who are around one or two years. that could be way off, but i don’t think we whiffed on this class….i think the wears will be better seniors than deon, and mcdonald, well, maybe a frasor type. still, if UK doesn’t win it this year their losing 4 starters, that hurts and it’s hard to build a program that way.
i don’t know, i think it might be too instant gratification to say let’s get all one and dones just to have decent years w/ no real program building. and that’s if we even COULD have had a shot at any of the top guys htis year. we got henson, which surely dissuaded some other bigs, plus the return of ed and deon and zeller….for guards, that could be the biggest miss…but we had larry and dexter signed, and we probably should have gotten one more TOP guard. other than that, like a few have mentioned, it’s hard to land top notch blue chips when you have a team of studs that MIGHT stay together. players are signing long before the team (usually, not for wall for example) wins a championship and it’s clear that wayne is MOP and Ty is best PG ever and both are going pro.
anyways, not sure if that is a silver lining or not, but i think we have to put it into perspective, we might just be one more year off our timeline of instant return to domination.
I understand the policy behind not bashing the players: they are just kids and don’t deserve it. The problem is that Roy, by many of his comments, has pretty squarely placed the blame on them. By saying that they aren’t playing with intensity and that he needs to find a way to motivate them, it is clear that, in Roy’s mind, they are the problem.
I would agree with Roy that the players need to play. On the other hand, it was Roy that brought these players to Chapel Hill.
In the end, for the purposes of our discussion, I understand why it is probably hard for some to hold back criticism of the players.
This team is what it is. This season is what it is. It is a lost season in that this team has not shown any marked improvement in so many areas that they are just not competetive even in a weakened ACC. You can “if” and “but” and grasp at any straw that you wish but this will remain a most forgettable team in a most forgettable season for the players, the coaches and we, the fans and alums spoiled by past successes. There will be no March Madness for Tarheel Nation this year.
But we will all survive and look forward to next year. Hey, we can still pull against Dook in all their remaining games!
Go Heels!!
Roy put together a bad team. Thats really what it boils down too. Everybody knew who was leaving last year, everybody knew the needs that had to be addressed this year. Roy didn’t address them. We knew we had to replace a fantastic PG… Roy didn’t recruit one. We knew we had to replace three great outside shooters… Roy didn’t recruit any. We knew we had to replace a big, tough, physical forward…Roy didn’t recruit one. It’s mind boggling. Five recruits – and none of them filled the needs that we knew we were going to have to fill this year. I really can’t imagine what Roy was thinking when he put this team together.
really don’t have an explanation for last night other than the Forrest Gump line, but the fact is they played a good (highly motivated) Duke team eye to eye for three-quarters of a game, so I know the basis for a good team is in there somewhere. And yes, except for Henson it was a complete breakdown last night.
I agree with your standards THF-there are “options” for the ones who don’t.
This is hard on everyone who wears Carolina Blue, but the ride back to the top will be a lot of fun. To be honest, Roy just didn’t get it done this year. It’s his job to pick the right mix of players. He’s got a huge budget to work with in the form of highly valued scholarships and one of the best brands in sports. He dropped the ball big time this season. But he’ll get it back!
This game looked like a “men against boys” game to me at least from a physical standpoint. And when the men are as talented as the boys, it’s over. Henson fought hard but how many dunks did Favors have last night?
The part that just makes my head shake is the poor shooting by the team in general, even when wide open and the decision making (or lack thereof) of Drew. I love the guy because he is a Tar Heel but he has regressed and appears to be intimidated in the lane.
I still hold out hope the guys can win a few down the stretch, just to get some momemtum going into next year.
BTW, when is the Spring Football game???
Also, I found Henson’s following post-game remarks interesting:
How much trouble did Tech’s big guys give you tonight?
“It was trouble. It would be trouble for anybody. But I think we handled it alright, as best as we could. We just came up short.”
On being able to come back against Tech in the first meeting:
“The way they play, if you play right, they press the whole game, you can come back easily. But, unfortunately, we couldn’t do that and came up short.”
I didn’t see the interview, but I can almost imagine him shrugging his shoulders when he says “we just came up short” – two times. This poor team is lost and in desperate need of a leader.
Roy said that of the 15 first half turnovers, only one was against their press.
the way Henson played last night goes to exactly what i find so perplexing. he played…”naturally”, if you will. he played within himself and within the flow of the game. in his what…3rd game at the 4 position?
why havent we seen a gradual upward curve of Drew or Strick or whoever, playing within themselves, letting the game come to them, playing with more and more comfort as each game is logged? after this many games, practices, something should just HAPPEN, even subconsciously.
“oh, this is how fast the opponents are. oh, these are the angles i need to take. oh, that kind of pass is not going to work at this level, oh, he’s not open, but there’s plenty of time to cycle it around again” and on and on.
how can Henson do it, in short order, and not the others?
not perfection, not amazing poise, but just SOME consistent feeling of comfort. it was like everyone else was playing their first game together.
its a headscratcher.
i have a hard time laying more of the “blame” on Roy. his way has sunk in with most every other team. why not this one? you can transmit all you want, it has to be recieved. i guess what the “its Roy’s fault” people are saying is that he brought in rotten receptors.
I think its crazy to blame Roy’s recruiting for this bad year. These were all top recruits comming in. Where were you at the beginning on the season. All I heard was “tied with Dook”, “top 5″, “big strong team”. Its hard to recruit specific needs when you do not know who is going to leave early. What if Lawson had not been here last year. By the time he would have declared it would have been too late to find a top PG. What if Ed Davis leaves this year, its already too late to find a replacement. And most players do not make an impact their first year.
This class is overrated. I think they will be better in 2 years. I think next year will be a struggle too. People are expecting again the world of the incomming class. There is still no muscle. And if Davis goes, that will leave a big hole in the middle.
The players need to play. Stop the stupid turnovers, make a layup, hit a jump shot, make a free throw. Maybe Roy should work on those basics more with the team. The upperclassmen are not very good and not showing leadership, until we can get that, the Heels must rebuild.
I had to stop watching last night, first it was getting late, and I knew it wasn’t going to get any better.
I can’t remember the last team I saw shoot so cold as last night. The turnovers were a lack of discipline, a lack of confidence. So too was the poor shooting. I don’t know what snaps these guys out of their funk, it just seems so obvious but it’s so hard to break the pattern. I really think they have good players and a good coach, but this is that ultimate intangible.
A Roy William’s coached team held an opponent to 68 points and lost by 17, that my friends is all you need to know.
“we might just be one more year off our timeline of instant return to domination.”
Alot of quitters (yes that is a strong word, but that is what this team did last night) coming back next season, so may be more than one year. As I said before, Barnes and Bullock will have to be Kobe Bryant and Ray Allen good to clean up this mess. There isn’t a magic bullet for fixing a lack of heart, effort, and fortitude. Forget about all the non-ACC caliber talent on the roster, a lack of fight is this team’s main problem.
These might be very good recruits, but they don’t fill the needs that we knew needed to be filled this year. We needed to replace a dynamic, mistake free point guard, two extremely accurate outside shooters and a strong, physical, bruising presence in the post. None of these five guys fill those roles. Its like if you are the coach of a football team and you lose 2 WRs, a QB and a RB to the NFL draft and you replace them with three 4 star O linemen and a 5 star linebacker. Hey – those guys are great, but they’re not what you needed.
Couple that with the fact that there were no unexpected departures last year (Ellington and Lawson auditioned for the draft at the end of their sophomore years, and didn’t withdraw from the draft until very late in the process – - that is as strong a signal as you can send that you aren’t coming back after the end of your junior year) That makes it really difficult to understand how Roy thought the players he was bringing in were going to fill the roles of the players who were going out.
excellent point 850, doesn’t mean this recruiting class still won’t be successful, but they were definitely the wrong pieces to the puzzle if Carolina was going to be successful this season.
“We knew we had to replace a fantastic PG… Roy didn’t recruit one. We knew we had to replace three great outside shooters… Roy didn’t recruit any.”
Kendall Marshall: 5-Star PG.
Reggie Bullock: 5-star SG. Possibly the best shooter in the class.
Harrison Barnes: Best player in the class. Possible the most heralded recruit UNC has ever signed.
Building a great team is very rarely done with one recruiting class, and it is virtually impossible to bring in multiple 5-star players in every single class. 4-star recruits are rarely-to-never instant impact players, but can often develop into very good college players and provide a stable base for the 5-star talents to play off of.
Also, this freshman class (nationally), aside from Henry, is fairly bereft of good outside shooters, so who was Roy supposed to recruit? Don’t forget, you start recruiting classes 2-3 (or more) years in advance, so yeah, last year it was somewhat obvious that Ellington was going to go out, but it wasn’t 2 years ago. If Ellington hadn’t gone off in the NCAAT, there was probably a better than 50/50 shot he would have come back. Personally, I’m glad he went off…
They just need to get tougher and mature. The question is whether they happens in the offseason or not. As for replacing what they lost. Everyone thought Ed Davis was going to be a beast and he has not been. Zeller got hurt and could have been effective. Still we knew the issues would be there on the perimeter but I am not sure we were prepared for how bad of a ballhandling team this crew ended up being. The chief problem as articulated by Roy is he has never had to coach effort until this season. I also think the players have not done enough to learn what they are supposed to do out there or are not listening to fundamental instructions.
Maybe the offseason improves some of this stuff but it does look like there will be a ton riding on Barnes and Bullock in particular but also on Marshall to be good out of the gate.
I thought Adam Lucas, as usual, puts the game into perspective in the final moments of his article this a.m. I know this year has been incredibly dissappointing but I feel much, much worse for the players. Here is the link and the paragraphs in question:
http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/021710aac.html
As frustrating as it is to watch, it’s infinitely more wearisome to live through it. Nearly a half-hour after the game, senior Deon Thompson returned from the training room, where he had taken three stitches in his lip. More than perhaps any other player, Thompson was looking forward to this season. He talked giddily of returning to the Final Four, of adding another banner to his career haul. Sure, you can scoff at that now, but he wasn’t alone. Those dreams have all but evaporated now.
As Thompson rounded a corner in the Alexander Memorial Coliseum labyrinth, he came upon Williams. The big man, still clad in his uniform, said nothing. He just sank into his coach, with Williams wrapping his arms around Thompson and clapping him on the back several times. Both have been called upon to try and explain this season to the public, to tell us what’s going wrong, how it feels, or how they’re going to fix it. Both have been upbeat and resolute.
Now, though, they just hugged. Neither man said anything. There was nothing left to say.
^That Lucas piece was one of the most depressing things I’ve read this season.
C.Michael and THF – you both make very good points. I am now resigned to the fact that we are looking at a multiyear rebuilding process that is fraught with uncertainty. It is contingent upon the current players being exponentially better (not just better – EXPONENTIALLY better) next year. It is contingent upon three freshmen being able to make an immediate, and huge, impact on this team. It’s probably also contingent upon Barnes sticking around for another year and McAdoo being as good (or better) then advertised. If none of those contingencies are met, then the road back to the top really becomes uncertain and future becomes very cloudy…
This season feels worse than the 8-20 season. I knew that season was going to be horrible. But this team has more talent, they have Roy instead of Doh, and the ACC is terrible this year. The only thing that is good is that Carolina won it all last year. If that had not happened, this season would be unbearable. Now it just feels like it is one to just throw away and forget about.
^To be fair, both the 2005 and 2009 were multi-year processes, too. Yes, the 2006 season was much better than this season, but that freshman class alone was not going to make them a title contender. The infusion of the next class instantly did.
In the case of the 2005 team, it took two recruiting classes and a year of playing together (growth) to become a title contender.
If I had to guess, we are looking at something in between next year. Maybe not a 1-seed, like the 2007 was, but probably not a 6-seed like the 2004 team was.
^^How sad is it that Carolina is now in the same boat as N.C. State with hoping the incoming recruits save the program. Isn’t it funny that not too long ago we all thought Duke was the program that had to have Harrison Barnes. How wrong were those assumptions?
^^I would say something like the year Duke is having now.
And the funny thing is some writer on a sydicated sport talk radio show from Charlotte thinks the problem is defense.
“It’s probably also contingent upon Barnes sticking around for another year and McAdoo being as good (or better) then advertised.”
Possibly. Drew/Marshall/Strickland/Bullock/Hairston/McDonald would still be a pretty deep, experienced, and talented backcourt.
Look I love Roy as much as anyone–he is a wonderful coach, I don’t want anyone else to lead this program. But that being said, when are folks going to realize that he is the master of hyperbole? Just because he says he has never had to coach effort, doesn’t mean that he hasn’t said the same thing before. Here’s a quote:
“Says Williams, “With almost all of my teams I’ve coached mostly execution, but with this team I’ve had to coach effort.
From last night? No from 2004.
We will get there. We will get there with these players. They are good albeit overwhelmed players.
The good thing is it is just one bad season. Carolina has two titles in the last five years. I think next year will be a struggle, too, but not as much. In two years, though, the Heels will be back in the title hunt.
^does that say more about Roy, or more about the fans?
^^^Not just Roy, I think you have to have a Masters in hyperbole in order to be a big time coach. Probably why so many of them do well (for themselves) as announcers. (e.g. Dick Vitale and Digger Phelps, to name a few…)
And don’t get me wrong, I think when Roy says thing he really believes it–he is not doing it for effect. He just wears his heart on his sleeve.
LD2, postgame:
“It’s frustrating. I can’t put my finger on why it is. Sometimes when we’re out there we just play scared. We don’t want to go to the hole or attack or shoot the ball. I think guys are out there trying to please other people instead of looking at the floor and what’s really going on.”
uh, what?
and this summer, i think i’d like to see LD stay here and workout with the guys, not out in california.
So… how does LD2 expect guys to attack or shoot the ball when they don’t have the ball because he didn’t give them the ball because he turned the ball over 8 times? Weak.
but who are these “other people”?
I am not sure who the “other people” are. The only people these guys should worry about pleasing are the ones in the suits sitting on the UNC bench and their fellow Tar Heels. You cannot worry about pleasing the fan base or boosters or anyone outside the team. Focus on the task you have been given and do what the coach tells you to do with as much heart and effort as you can muster.
As for being aggressive I thought Drew did a good job being aggressive, getting into the lane. The problem is he then makes an ill advised pass when he should shoot a runner or when he does need to make a pass it is the wrong pass, the wrong direction or he is surrounded by five opposing players.
good question – - because the other people who he did pass the ball to – you know, the ones who play for Ga Tech? They did a great job attacking the basket and shooting…
I didn’t see a single second of this game. First game I’ve completely missed in my life. I can’t keep abusing myself by watching this team this year. It’s like they are using replacement players right now. Henson’s line looks nice but 1-7 from the line? Really? Jesus. This team has been putrid in every aspect of the game this year.
And I see now that Drew went 2-7 from the line. This team can’t score as it is but when you are being given free points you have to convert. And 8 turnovers for Drew. Horrible.
I’ve truly never been as embarassed (sp?) as a Tar Heel fan as I was last night. It is simply dumbfounding to go from the dominance I felt last year to the humiliation of this year. I don’t say humiliation in a pejorative way. I think a true fan is willing to be humiliated with his/her team – be there for the good and the bad. But I don’t know that I have ever felt such a dramatic shift in sentiment in such a short time (sports-related of course). This morning I wondered if it was some sort of basketball Karma for the way we abused the tournament last year.
On a side note, I will say that the ‘censoring’ of the live blog yesterday was somewhat disturbing. It had a ring of the Chinese communist government way of doing things. I respect the fact that THF doesn’t wish for the blog to degenerate into foul-mouthed, personal-in-nature attacks on players or other bloggers. And maybe I don’t know the whole story, but hoping for a player to transfer b/c he is playing horrifically, while I might not agree, doesn’t appear to rise to that level. We can all sit around and say communism is good and or ways it could be improved or shut up. Saying that you wish someone would transfer could simply be interpreted as ‘if you’re not going to be proud to play with that jersey and you’re not going to give it your all, then do us a favor and play elsewhere.’ Plus, this is a blog. No one here is the assistant coach so there’s no heightened interest to protect the players from a lot of criticism. A blog is somewhat equivalent to an editorial section of a newspaper. People are free to criticize political figures and ask them to resign as long as there are no profane, childish comments. But then again, it’s your blog. And it’s a private one. I’m just saying.
Lastly, I’m convinced that the team does not have an x’s and o’s problem, but a head problem. Obviously, it is not uncommon in sports for players/teams/coaches to go through slumps and hit some walls. I don’t think Roy is this bad and I don’t think the players are this bad. They didn’t start the year this way and they weren’t this way when facing other high level competition in AAU tournaments, etc., etc. A player like John Henson doesn’t come into college so highly touted and nearly airball every free throw he puts up. It’s not possible to not be able to run a decent inbounds play. This is a mental problem. After hearing Roy talk and reading his book, he doesn’t appear to be much into that sort of thing like a Phil Jackson who teaches his players to meditate and practice imaging before games. These guys need an external stimulus/factor. Roy needs it. He has checked out. You could see it last night. I can’t necessarily blame him. It’s human. They need to put down the basketballs and talk. They needs sports psychologists to come in and talk to them. They don’t need anymore practice. They know how to play basketball. They’ve lost something much more than that. Confidence building exercises, go out in the woods, group up, and fall and catch one another. Something. A field trip to the zoo (kidding). Some external factor b/c I think the group from top to bottom is too tainted at this point.
Again, I see plenty of potential and talent on the team but HealtotheEnd makes a good pint. I think he and Davis went off on their own for training. While, as far as I can tell, they seem to not be in-fighting much, they for better or worse lack confidence and aggressiveness as a unit just as much as they lack communication and cohesion on the floor.
It’s hard to get down on anyone too much. I don’t a lot of individual failures, but a lot of mistakes doing the little things and among players.
Heels_44, I don’t feel up to reading your whole post but I browsed it and I do think a little of their trouble could be mental. But with each passing game I am really beginning to wonder if the talent is there. This class could be a complete wash sans Henson.
There are many troubling things that came out of this last game. The coach was blaming the players for their lack of effort, while the players were taking digs at the coaching staff (that’s what I read in LD2 and Henson’s comments). There is trouble brewing and one just cannot exonerate the coaching staff from all blame. Sure they were desperate but not calling time outs to stop a run, pursuing with this run-and-gun mentality when the players have problems pushing the ball up are coaching problems. The team did quite well at the end when they slowed the game down and started executing set plays. Frankly Roy Williams should have realized several games ago that he does not have the players to execute his precious system and started coaching half-court plays. Now that this is a losing season he is blaming the players for their lack of effort, that is just not right.
Okay, first of all THF is not a government entity empowered with protecting or providing free speech. This is a privately owned blog. There are rules. There are also logistical circumstances as well such as the fact I alone am charged with moderating a live blog and the flow of comments got to a point where I simply had enough of watching the garbage spew by. And yes, wishing for a player to leave the program because his performance level has not been as good as you hoped is disrespectful to the player and the program. I imagine the same thing could have been said about Quentin Thomas during his first three years and had he listened to that advice UNC would have been royally screwed for the last half of the 2008 regular season since your starting PG would have been Marcus Ginyard.
Besides that, Inside Carolina has similar rules and bans people who cross certain lines. I probably draw the line sooner than they do because I an trying to get things above board.
@carolinablue….this team is woeful in the half court set too. I’ll break down their half court offense for you:
Drew dribbles back and forth at the top of the key for 10 seconds then just passes it to Graves who jacks up a 3
or
Drew drives the lane and throws a pass at someone’s jugular, turnover, run-out, opposing team easy lay-up
“Frankly Roy Williams should have realized several games ago that he does not have the players to execute his precious system and started coaching half-court plays. Now that this is a losing season he is blaming the players for their lack of effort, that is just not right.”
How do you know that has not happened? What goes on in practice is not publicly known so for all we know he has tried various things in practice that have not worked. He has admitted that there are some things they normally do which have been left out because this team could not do it. I am not saying Roy is absolved from blame. Certain personnel moves are in question obviously and the utilization of Henson at the three obviously did not work. However, players still have to play, execute, focus and do their jobs. We are not talking about overly complex plays they cannot execute. Basic crap like 2 on 1 breaks are suspect. Entry passes to the post. Poor spacing. No movement off the ball. In other words I think Roy has coached the Xs and Os to them they are simply not performing on the court. Now you can certainly question the personnel and the fit of certain players in certain positions. Not to mention the injuries are not helping this team find any sort of identity either.
@Makhtar: This team does not have half court plays, period. This team revolves around the PG pushing the ball up the court to the basket and then create plays. That’s the “system”, one dimensional at one speed and very reliant on PG play. Unfortunately, this PG has problem handling the ball at that speed, he is just not skilled enough. Moreover he is not gutsy enough to play within himself, because that will annoy the coach. Therefore you have the team rushing the ball up court and then they have a problem because either they turn it over (that’s a skill issue) or they just don’t have people to shoot the ball. A team like this needs to slow down. I would much rather watch this team playing a slow half-court game, execute half-court sets and score 50 points, than having it run up at break-neck speeds, turn the ball over and end up scoring 50 points just the same.
THF a lot of the problems you say is because of the one-dimensional aspect of the game. This team is expected to play at two speeds fast and very fast. Not all players are that fast. The ball handlers are not that fast and they are obviously not skilled enough to handle the ball at that speed. You are right there are problems with personnel too. How many times have you seen Deon Thompson (I bring his name up because he is the senior and has no excuse) in position or fighting for position? Larry Drew plays better against slower teams. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and play slow, that’s not happening. What’s happening now is due to a crisis of confidence. These players have no confidence in their abilities anymore.
@carolinablue….I see what you are saying about slowing the game down but this team does not have the skills to do that either. I am having serious doubts about the talent of these kids. I hope the talent is only looking weak because the confidence is not there.
The pressure is really building on the next class because they are going to have to step in at many spots and carry the load.
“This team does not have half court plays, period. This team revolves around the PG pushing the ball up the court to the basket and then create plays.”
Not accurate. First the PG and the rest of the team should play fast and not in a hurry, and most times this team plays in a hurry, even in the half court sets. Secondly, the Roy Williams system has the PG push or pass the ball up court as quickly as possible, and if a transition opportunity is not available then they run the secondary break which are half court plays that the have multiple scoring options (both in the post and on the perimeter) and requires the players to recognize certain keys or mismatches to determine the best areas to attack on the defense. If the team does not get an opportunity via the secondary break then the team should flow into their motion offense and call a specific set or play. Carolina has multiple sets and plays that they run in the half court and Roy has tried all of them in addition to installing a new half court offense that he hoped would take advantage of Carolina’s passing ability of their Bigs. Every half court play in the Carolina system has been thrown at the problem unsuccessfully.
So by looking at the abilities of this team on offense what new half court sets do you propose that haven’t been tried. Maybe they should try the Flex offense or Dribble Drive vs. the Motion Offense? Personally, I think this team’s offensive deficiencies and lack of personnel on that side of the ball are more of the problem than slowing it down and calling more half court plays (which they are doing already). The majority of the turnovers last night were in the half court and unrelated to trying to play faster.
Therefore, like I mentioned before the only alternative is to scrap the whole Carolina motion offense for something else like the flex or dribble drive, which imhop would be a big mistake considering Roy needs to be laying the foundation of his system with the young guys so they can contribute when Roy finally does have the horses in the next two seasons to run the Carolina break and half court sets more effectively. If this team was a different offensive set away from winning basketball games I guess I may tend to agree with scrapping the whole system, but this team is so far off base from winning that I do not agree in mortgaging the future to play a different version of mediocre / bad basketball this season.
Plus, Roy has to coach and teach what he knows. Obviously he knows other offenses since he has to teach his team to defend them but trying to coach the intricacies of a new system at this stage would be a disaster. Based on what I have heard, these freshmen have had a very difficult time grasping the system now. Might as well stick with it and hope they get on board for next season than throw something new out there.
Question for everyone? When was the last time we saw are players having fun. Last night everyone looked disinterested, and playing for themselves.
^Against Michigan State… LAST season against Michigan State…
THF, I wish I could share your optimism towards LD2, with him @ the helm, do you see us returning to glory, or are thinking that we need someone else to takes us there?
I am really hard on Larry because he is the PG @ UNC; but he also is playing with less talented players then TY or Ray, and both TY and Ray are remembered for their JR years, and not their Fresh or Soph years.
Larry will be a junior next yr, but we need to take a huge step from a PG standpoint.
^^the last NC State game, but all relevant observations are rendered null & void in this season.
think about what Roy and the assistants must be doing, must have BEEN doing since game 1 of the year.
examining every trip down the court. knowing where everyone was supposed to be, and when. having an opinion on when the best time to throw a pass is and what type of pass.
every time LD2, runs down and does X, they can say…Will isnt spaced right, Deon isnt deep enough, doesnt have his man sealed, Travis should be here, or screening harder, LD should rub off closer, that pass was too soft, too low, on and on.
i cant IMAGINE the bunch of them looking at film for the last 20 years and not knowing exactly what isnt right about a set or positioning.
so what, they cant tell LD and Deon and Marcus EXACTLY where they should be, and what they should do? just like they did every day with Tyler and Wayne and Ty and Ray and Sean and Jawad, and every day at Kansas? i dont believe it.
“I am really hard on Larry because he is the PG @ UNC; but he also is playing with less talented players then TY or Ray, and both TY and Ray are remembered for their JR years, and not their Fresh or Soph years.”
Ray and Ty were also 5-star PGs. I’ve been pretty clear that I think that LDII can be a very solid PG on the ACC-level, with a full year’s experience and better players on the perimeter, but to expect him to be at Ray and Ty’s level is probably not realistic. It might not be until LDII is a senior and Marshall is a sophomore that UNC has its PGs (combined) performing at the level we saw in 2005 or 2009.
someone tell me how LD2 is on pace to have 10 fewer ACC assists than Ty did a year ago, withOUT #s 50, 22, and 14?
^Ty shot more (9.8 ShPG vs. 7.1 ShPG) and the others, especially DFG and WE, were much better at getting their own shots.
Its not the lack of assists that is making LD2 a liability on many nights – its the abundance of turnovers. It also doesn’t help that he’s not a great scorer.
he’s about 20 shot attempts short of Ty’s pace.
so…LD2 is or isnt a better passer? is or isnt pass first? 6 assists without those guys is 6 assists.
so…without the TOs, he’s getting 9 assists?
my main point is about the coaching staff. they can see the plays and positioning in their sleep. its like breathing to them. there’s no way they arent delivering the message.
i dont know what to make of it yet. just asking out loud.
LD2 is on pace, even with the 8 last night, of having 18 more TOs than Ty did last year, in a 16 game conference schedule.
sure, 7 more pts a game by Ty makes a difference. but who youre throwing it to would also. i dont think its a stretch that Ty wouldnt get 6 assists with this team if he’s also scoring 16ppg.
^To me, Larry is a pass-first PG who is playing with a team that is bereft of players with exceptional offensive skills, especially on the perimeter. That is a tough combination, but fortunately, that should not be the case next year.
^ which by virtue of that necessity (forcing him to be more offensive minded) theoretically should benefit him going into next season…and I think it will.
Ok – I can buy the argument that LD2 may be very good with the right talent around him. But that just raises another, very obvious question.
*we’re left with Will and Marcus not being Wayne and Danny, and LD2′s improved shot hasnt really been witnessed much.
*Strickland not getting minutes, then not showing off a consistent shot we expected.
*we’re left with we expected Ed’s numbers to go up more than 5 pts and 2 boards a game from last year.
*we’re left with we expected Deon to put up more numbers, not fewer, but since he wont fight for his own points, thats out.
*we didnt get the minutes from Henson we expected.
*we didnt get the minutes from Z. or from the Wears.
anything else?
even with less eyepopping talent, i still expected 9 wins. in a down ACC year.
we’ve been outhustled by “lesser” talent.
*oh yeah, and no 5 guys out there at once that remember where they are supposed to be.
LD2 has the stats to seem like a decent PG in the ACC, but right now I can not say he is better than any PG in the ACC not wearing a NC state uni.
Larry needs to lead, not just play PG. If he need an explain, just watch last yrs tape of the Duke game. He doesnt have to be Ty, but he DOES has to lead like Tywon did.
“But that just raises another, very obvious question.”
Which gets back to the idea that it is not always possible to have a complete team year in, and year out, and it is not as easy as saying, “Roy should have recruited differently for this year.” There are a number of things that led up to this, not the least of which is the fact that UNC signed 11 players in the 2005 and 2006 classes. As great as those classes were, that only left Roy with one scholarship for what is now the junior class, which Roy had to offer to Love because neither Hansbrough nor Wright were locks to be (or even expected to be) around for the 2007-08 season. Maybe he shouldn’t have made an offer to Copeland or signed both Stepheson and Thompson, but that is hindsight at its worst.
In terms of recruiting for this current class, there are really two things that hurt UNC: first, when he started recruiting these players (2-3 years ago) most analysts expected Ellington to be on the roster for his senior year. Second, the number of great shooters/scorers available nationally, was pretty low. Even the top PGs (Bradley and Wall), aren’t known as great shooters.
*we’ll go back to Wayne being MUCH less than expected (and that’s being nice if you go back & search), and Danny making incredibly bone-headed plays, both their Soph years
*Henson was being thoroughly trashed just 3 short weeks ago (which when he shows some inconsistency, he no doubt will be again)
Ever notice that as soon as LD crosses the haft court line that he is going to pass the ball to somebody right then? Its usually to the other team cause they know he’s going to do it every time….
^ People who trashed Henson seem to forget that he never played the 3 spot, that was decision made by the coaching staff. He always belonged to the 4 spot. That was an experiment that went horribly wrong. Right now the major worry for all UNC fans is what will Henson’s decision be end of this year. If Henson and Davis (Ed is very high probability) both leave we will have a thin front court.
Henson was “thoroughly” trashed? hm.
^^thats funny, i actually have found myself thinking LD looks to pass, passes that dont seem to be significant, instead of dribbling the perimeter. i wondered if i was just making something out of nothing.
The way this team turns the ball over I was under the impression many of them are thoroughly trashed.
(rimshot)
I keed, I keed.
” Right now the major worry for all UNC fans is what will Henson’s decision be end of this year. If Henson and Davis (Ed is very high probability) both leave we will have a thin front court.”
I don’t mean to sound too harsh, but if a player’s preference is to go to the league when they are vastly unprepared and unable to make an impact just so they can get a fat check then I say please go. Because if they are more interested in just a check vs. being the best players they can be along with being prepared to have productive careers in the NBA then most likely we would still be talking about “potential” instead of production in their future years in Chapel Hill.
If either Davis or Henson thinks that their play has justified a NBA contract or that either is ready to contribute in the NBA now, then these two staying would only be a detriment to next season’s team.
“The way this team turns the ball over I was under the impression many of them are thoroughly trashed.”
I know watching them play makes me want to get trashed every time……….
I really am starting to worry about Henson leaving after this year, because he has said, once he is a lottery pick, he is gone. I know people think the NBA is crazy to pick him, but there are not a lot players that are 6 10 and can handle the ball and run the floor.
Once John gets any offense other than dunking, watch out!!! hopefully we will see that during his time with the heels.
Last night was horrible, but the block that John had on the dunk, and the one he had against the guy who posted him up, will be get him noticed.
” I know people think the NBA is crazy to pick him, but there are not a lot players that are 6 10 and can handle the ball and run the floor.”
You forgot able to air ball a free throw, bobble passes around the basket, get pushed around in the paint, has zero post moves, and is as weak as a 15 year old girl.
I love Henson and his potential, but the kid is not even ready to play in Europe much less the NBA. When I think about Davis and Henson leaving for the NBA I’m reminded of Doug Moe’s comment to Roy when discussing the possibility of McCants, Felton, and May going pro after the 2004 season: “Who would want them?”.
well I’ll admit that on one play in particular, Drew looked smashed last night as he tried to force one into a non-existent hole.
^I’m with you on both Ed & John–neither is ready & if they think they are, good riddance, but I don’t think it’ll happen.
I don’t think I see the bright spots of Henson that some of you see. He is the least comfortable offensive player I can recall ever seeing in a Carolina uniform – and that dates back to Warren Martin and/or Timo Makkonen as freshmen. He is completely lost on the offensive end – he doesn’t catch the ball well, he has no concept of where he is, or where to be, and he shoots the ball differently every time. I can’t even watch him at the free throw line. I thought earlier in the season that he just panicked when he got the ball, but as his minutes increase this doesn’t get better. He is enormously talented athletically, but in my opinion he has an awful lot of work to do to be even a servicable player on offense. Not really that uncommon in kids who have always just been so much taller and athletic than other kids that they’ve never had to really learn the game, but, as you can see, that’s not the case any more. Reminds me in some ways of the Hawks Josh Smith, who showed up in Atlanta with a ton of talent but no real basketball skills. Now, after a lot of work, he plays like an AllStar. I hope Henson is willing to work. He seems like pleasant, if shellshocked, guy.
^uncomfortable? really?
hm. he has 4 TOs in the last 7 games.
i wouldnt have the adjective shellshocked anywhere in his top ten.