Because the longer this goes on the more I feel like I am in the movie Airplane!
Quite a day here at THF. Tempers flared. Someone got banned. I got hate email which has never happened before.
It is funny how all it takes is 21 games of bad basketball to turn a fan base, some of whom might still be getting skin grafts from getting 3rd degree burns on Franklin Street into..well…Wolfpack fans. This is proof positive just how nasty losing can be and how short our memories get as fans. Sports fans are the ultimate “what have you do for me lately” constituency in the world. Some of that is the nature of the beast. One season ends and another one begins. We compartmentalize these seasons so the last one has almost nothing to do with impacting how we enjoy(or in this case suffer) the present season. Still, given the level of success UNC has enjoyed you can’t help but think that maybe we all might be over the top in being overly upset at the state of things. Except the level of success is a two edge sword. It is immensely gratifying to be able to watch great teams for 3-4-5 years and equally disappointing to watch a team that falls well short of that.
The really disturbing thing is it really does not matter how reasonable a fan can be, no one can avoid succumbing to negativity when the team is playing this badly. When all you do is criticized sooner or later that criticism takes a nasty edge. I joked earlier this week about UNC fans going through the five stages of grief where this team was concerned and it is true. The commentary here has gone through a variety of stages until we reached today where it appears we have gone into a meltdown mode usually reserved for IC message boards.
Of course the irony of all of this, from a blogger’s point of view, is that losing is good for traffic. The dirty little secret about the internet is that by and large it is one gigantic gripe fest. Message boards and blogs exist primarily to give people a voice. Opinions must be rendered! Points argued and counterargued! Someone is wrong and darn it I am going to prove it! This is the nature of the internet and the more there is to complain about the better.
So what’s my point? Nothing really other than to sort of plead with you guys to do your level best to make your criticisms grounded in facts and without deninigrating the players you are criticizing. I have said this before and it bears repeating. These guys wear NORTH CAROLINA on the uniform and they invest serious time every day to play basketball for the university. Regardless of their performance on the court that sort of commitment warrants a basic level of respect as does the accomplishments of the coaches. Going forward, do your best to remember that. Also remember that everyone on this blog is entitled to their opinion as long as it is delivered with a modicum of class and respect. While I understand tensions are high the best rule to remember is don’t write anything you would not be absolutely willing to say to the person’s face.
In the meantime let me cheer you with this completely asinine quote dropped by Steve Lavin on ESPN Tuesday night during the Michigan St-Wisconsin game when discussing the Spartans’ 2009 NCAA Tournament run calling it:
….the most impressive four game run of any team in the tournament
Yeah, that might be the dumbest thing I have heard this season. Not only did UNC’s entire six game run trump almost every other national champion in the 64 team save Duke’s 2001 title. In particular the four game run from the Sweet Sixteen to the title game was dominant in every way. Plus, I am not sure where Lavin found four straight games MSU was so impressive in considering they only beat #10 seeded USC by five in the 2nd round, won three games then got rolled by the Heels in the title game.
No wonder Dexter Strickland thinks ESPN talking heads are full of crap.
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I want to be the first to apologize. I got very snippy and I really should have calmed down a little more before I posted. I just feel very protective of this team and I hate it when we as a fanbase lose faith in them. Again, I’m really sorry and I hope all of you can forgive me.
THF,
I don’t often comment but I do visit this site every day. That’s because I’ve found it to be the one of the classiest UNC sites I’ve seen. I really appreciate the way you conduct it, a way that reminds me of the University. Thanks for all you do.
And uncgirl50, you’re a class act as well. We can always count on you to back the team, no matter what.
Thank you Larry, that’s the best compliment I could ask for.
haha, i knew this had to be good for business!
gosh, last year i would have paid to have been roy’s neighbor so i could friggin’ high five that guy every day as he walked out the door. now i wouldn’t dare make eye contact for fear of getting a lashing.
just saying i think these kids and the coaching staff feel the same way we do, it just hasn’t clicked yet. but i have faith it will. i’m sure marcus ginyard and deon thompson as seniors feel it moreso than any of us, their last hoorah, their team, their stamp on carolina basketball.
so you’re right, instead of criticizing them to their face, i’d just say keep working your butts off, trust in roy, and while no one is perfect, just do the best you can do. then i’d tell dexter and henson to go out there and try to kick the seniors butts and let’s use this period in time to be a defining point in this team’s character and season.
I, too, like the way Brian runs this site. It’s why I continue to come back, time and time again. I understand tempers flare and as fans, we want nothing but the best. That, unfortunately, leads to some disappointment at some point. The important thing is to keep perspective. We are just fans. It is just a game. It’s not life or death. Nobody is dying because the Heels aren’t doing so hot right now. We look to UNC athletics and to sports in general for entertainment value, and while we are obsessed, sometimes, we all need to take a step back.
Keep up the great work here and at Thee Sports Blog. Very classy. I hope the hate mail stops coming.
THF –
Thank you for the tremendous amount of work you put into this blog. I honestly don’t see how you do it. Hearing from you, Doc, C.Michael and some of our commenters is an education.
I blog on a law site, and hits is indeed the name of the game. Something like the Virginia disaster is bound to be good for business. It is, unfortunately, bad for digestion.
Over the last couple of days, the blog, beyond its educational value, has allowed us to gripe to one another, which enables us to handle our disappointment and move beyond it.
Plus it’s cheaper than psychotherapy and healthier than getting drunk.
but getting drunk can be more fun
Jordan8027 –
Now, now, now. We’re supposed to be setting an example.
Oh wait. We’re all pseudonymed commenters! We DON’T have to set an example! Far out!
Actually, you force me to another confession. I’m a teetotaler. Always have been. I have nothing against booze, I just don’t like the taste. This is why, after something like the Virginia meltdown, I head for the malt shop instead of the bar.
rathskellar68
February 2nd, 2010 at 7:03 pm
I have graduated from all the schools you mention. They are all good schools. I was on the faculty at WFU for a few years.
I enjoy reading this site due to the interesting comments and articles here. If you live in the Southeast, please be grateful for the wonderful institutions and everything else in the area.
I especially treasured the last few years as I frankly idolized Hansbrough. Sure the other great players were part of the team, but I really admired him. I regret never being able to see him play in person.
I have a tough medical career, and the inspiration from guys like Hansbrough is frankly motivating. There are certainly other athletes whose accomplishments are inspirational like Bode Miller or Lance Armstrong. There are local athletes I ride bikes with here that inspire me. And get me out of bed early on the weekend to train.
But there is just something very special about Hansbrough to me that I have rarely seen in a college athlete. It isn’t just about being the best. It is his determination to try. No matter what. In many ways his leadership was showing the other players that they could succeed by listening to the coaching staff and following their programs, on and off season. It was also about seeing him succeed. That was just really fun!
It has been painful seeing the team go through this tough year. But I am sure it hasn’t been easy for the UNC players either. The coach has certainly not been easy on them. It is not very glamorous to find many of your former supporters turned against you. It’s fine to be partisan. But there are limits.
Hopefully everyone will learn from this process, and come out of it better.
Go Heels.
Thanks for this post THF. I’ve been feeling like as a community we here have been neglecting how much we have to be thankful for. Obviously the team isn’t living up to the historical standards of this program, but there are plenty of places where the season that we’ve had so far would net a coach a contract extension. Not to mention something else we seem to forget: living up to this programs historic standards is hard. There have been plenty of coaches at Kentucky, Indiana, and UCLA who have choked badly on those expectations or been corrupted to the “dark side” in recruiting and retaining their players. An off year happening isn’t the end of the world. This isn’t 2002 bad, and we came back from that season better than ever. I’ve alluded to this before and I’ll allude to it again, it could be worse, we could be UCLA. They are a team that is in the same class historically as us, they’ve had a high level of success recently too, and they are having a season more brutal than ours this year. They are under .500 for the season, and the only reason it’s not worse, is because the Pac-10 has been absolutely brutal as a league this year.
rath, sadly i had to google teetotaler…now what does THAT say? haha, i’ll just hit up azzfan for some medical advice later in life. and yes, we as carolina fans need to set a great example. if you need proof of what can happen if you don’t, well, i happened to be in undergrad in chapel hill for a certain incident regarding a certain duke player who may or may not be on the staff of an important political figure whose name might start with a B and end with arak Obama.
do not get drunk and pass out at a frat party people, especially not on enemy territory! any college kids reading this, take note!
I honestly think there is a lot more going on besides just UNC losing. Granted, beautiful basketball assuages most cranky fans, but I have seen many comments this year, mine among them, from fans who are uneasy about some of the subtle changes in the program.
There should be a certain joy in the sport of basketball. Sure it is muted somewhat when you lose but it should still be there. I don’t see that joy coming from the top. I think Roy is a much better coach than Mack Brown, but still, Brown exudes a certain positivity that Coach Williams just does not have, at least not this year.
Let’s face it. College sports are not what they once were. The NCAA apparently is poised to ruin college basketball’s regular season and post-season. Tennessee and Miami have both fired national championship winning football coaches. Players come for one year in basketball, which essentially means they don’t have to even pass any classes. Marvin Williams was a nice guy, but it is not exactly the same as Brad Daugherty, who essentially grew up with our program.
I think there is a kind of fascination with the whole drama of Roy, Marcus and the potentially lost season. Has Roy been coasting on the recruiting trail since he grabbed Wright, Ellington and Lawson, or is this just a temporary glitch.
You think, oh he will get his groove back, but you never know. Pete Carroll, Steve Spurrier and Coach K all seemed unstoppable back in the early 2000′s and all seem to have lost their groove, similar to what Dean went through from 1983 through 1993.
Ultimately, we all have to decide what matters to each of us. We hear trite remarks about team, but most players would rather play on a team that doesn’t win the national title, than sit on a team that does.
Winning a national title is the ultimate goal; Dean won two in 30 something years.
Is it better to go hot and cold and actually win some titles or is it better to be like Dean was most of his career or K has been since 2001, where you are routinely excellent but really don’t come all that close to winning it all most years?
When I say that people are unhappy about things besides the record, I think it is sort of the opposite of what was happening back in the late 1990′s. Then recruiting was a real issue, but I never felt as though UNC could get out-coached by an opponent. Maybe sometimes, we overcoached, maybe, but I think the Georgetown loss in 2007 shook some of our faith in that regard, although for me, the loss to Kansas was far worse. UNC rebounded but last year’s title was credited much more to the player’s than to the coach, which was far different from 2005. Hopefully, that didn’t make anyone jealous.
great point marcus….man, the eternal optimist in me says this team is just full of late bloomers. i’m hoping that gut feeling pans out. but yeah, as much as we are frustrated, geeze, life is not THAT bad. we have a solid core of freshman and sophomores, who have a little ways to go, are fresh off a championship run of historic proportion, and have a great class coming in next year and the year after that.
i for one will ride this unc bandwagon to the grave.
golly gee, did someone just use the phrase “malt shop”??
oh, i got a laugh out of that. thanks, rath.
William it’s not clear what subtle changes in the program you’re referring too. I’m also not clear as to the joyous nature you’re talking about as it pertains to Roy. Roy has been cranky this year I’d say, but he has been far from full on dour Bob Knight I’d say. Also, the things you mention as far as a program downturn are possible, but there are so many ifs involved there I don’t even know if it’s worth speculating over unless we find our selves farther down that path.
One last thing. I get the sense from many of your posts that you have beef with Roy because he’s not Dean. I don’t say that as an accusation or attack, but I definitely get that vibe from you.
Rath, I’m obviously quite a bit younger than you. What’s a malt shop?
with roy and more specifically roy’s tenure at UNC, it’s hard to really make any judgments this year or next. there is no coach in post wooden basketball that has ever continued roy’s path of 2 titles every 6 years. i’m surely wrong, but is there another active coach besides k (and knight when he was messing around at texas tech) w/ 3 rings? i think it’s also just that hard to put up that kind of performance consistently. it could be as simple as last year and this year’s recruiting class not panning out. i don’t know how much you can put that on roy. i mean, i think this class is DRASTICALLY different if henson was a player at the level of any of the other top 10 recruits of this year’s class (wall, cousins, favors, henry, bradley, hamilton, etc..)or any of our previous top 10 recruits (wright, wayne, lawson, hansbrough, felton, may, mccants, marvin).
tough to say, but i do believe our program shoots for long term sustained success, that was practically roy’s criticism at KU, great winning % no rings…
I am saying that Roy doesn’t seem joyful. Dean wasn’t Dale Carnegie but Roy seems pretty dour this year.
I was a bigger Roy fan than Dean fan until recently. It has been a gradual thing. I don’t like the calling out players in public. I don’t like him talking about players on other teams like Rush and Wall. I absolutely despise the attempt to berate people for not going to dog games. The fangate thing was just wrong.
I liked Roy’s coaching approach more than Dean’s in terms of running, although the difference was only marginal, but I think Smith may have used his players better.
Some of the other things may have come from Kansas or may have to do with the changing of the times, but I am not a huge fan of the increased focus on Senior Day. I though Dean already did enough to honor the seniors, not to mention that half of those games the players already have enough to deal with, with it being the Duke game.
It is not as though I dislike Roy, but I do think he has that kind of tilting at windmills personality where he can be offputting. Everyone was thrilled to win the title last year, but obviously it wasn’t going to be as big a deal as in 2005 where UNC beat a far better opponent and was rising from the ashes of 3 years earlier.
Thank you for clarifying.
Denny Crum was a guy at Louisville who was on top of the world in the mid-1980′s with two titles and a few Final Fours and he basically ended up getting fired.
Nobody has more than 3 rings because basically no one had more than one ring before Wooden. That is why you can’t compare Smith and Vic Bubas to K. Bubas might have been a better coach in his ten years but there was no getting past UCLA back then.
When I started watching college ball, you had Wooden with his ten+ titles; you had Frank McGuire with one, Norm Sloan with one and that was basically it. The guy from Texas Western was hanging on but no longer a factor. The coaches from Loyola and Cincy and USF and OSU who had won before UCLA were all gone.
Back then no one thought you had to have won the NCAA title to be considered a great coach, because if that was the case there were only about five coaches in the discussion until Indiana broke through to win the title in 1976.
Sounds like back then the key to having multiple rings was having Sam Gilbert as a booster.
I feel ya THF. I use to build and run gaming servers and was the leader of a huge clan. Not that clan. LOL! A gaming clan with hundreds of members in multiple countries all looking to me for answers.
It became a full time job, my third. I had to give it up because it drove me crazy even though I made more money at it than my RN job.
People would fight for no reason and get defensive at the drop of a hat. It is hard to read words on a page that someone writes and understand what the writer is saying sometimes unless you know them. Even then it is still difficult.
When someone speaks you can hear the meaning in there voice. People can say good morning in a hateful tone to you. Your friend could say F off to you and you know they still care about you because of how they say it.
On a blog or message board it is not always easy to discern someone’s intent. I always try to give someone the benefit of the doubt no matter what. I guess I do that because of what I do. I have had dying people say terrible things while on heavy narcotics. You just let it roll off like they never said it.
I guess I am trying to keep it simple. Maybe to simple. I like to try and see the good in everyone. Oh well not everyone can be a super genius like wylie coyote.
I would like to give major props to “The Tar Heel Fan” for having this fantastic blog and for allowing all of us to have a place to vent and have a voice. Also I would like to thank him for answering the same question for me during football recruiting season 2 years in a row because I forgot the answer. LOL! I will probably ask again next year.
25 recruits right give or take a few. 25, 25, 25.
1/15/2011 Hey THF how many recruits can a college football team sign?
I honesty believe that despite winning two championships the last 5 years (and perhaps because of) unc fans have a right to be very upset this year. Not making the ncaas is something that simply should not happen. When it does happen, somebody has got to be blamed.
Ultmately, this is roy’s fault. He recruited this team and he coaches this team. No one is going to fire Roy, but somehow we should cal it like it is. How that is expressed is another story
Mind you, this is the same Steve Lavin who once said:
“I think it’s the team that’s able to get easy baskets and is able to score enough points. With all the focus on defense, which no question is going to be a key element to it, it’s also going to be who scores enough points.”
Yes folks, he essentially said the key to the game was who scores the most points…
Marcus,
Sam Gilbert then, Worldwide Wes now. The more things change…
I am new to this site and appreciate the manner in which it is operated and enjoy reading the varied commentary of others.
I am an old grad(’61) and have bled Carolina Blue for many years. The ongoing success of this program has spoiled us all to the point that the seldom low points that we may experience can bring us to anger or unjustified criticism of both players and coaches. I plead guilty to this as well. Then I stop and realize that this is a solid program that will survive and prosper just as it has for 100 years. GO HEELS11
Lighten up, it’s just basketball, it’s fun. Every program has its ups and downs. We just have more ups than others.
Cmon Lavin is an easy target. His heavy hair is weighing on sound judgement.
Jordan, I hear you on late bloomers.
THF, thanks for doing your best to reign in the quality of this site.
And as Santa said, let’s root hard for tar heel football’s success today!
Just checking to make sure I wasn’t banned……….
Seriously, I have made my share of comments, both positive and negative. I will say that I did post last fall that Heels fans would be disappointed if they compare the MACHINE that rolled through Detroit last spring with the 09/10 team. However, I don’t anyone expected what appears to be a disorganized and for the most part, erratic team.
Having said that, I do TRUST IN ROY and what a great story it would be for the Heels to come back to at least .500 and then win the ACCT!
Signing Day!!
hm. on one of the many many espn pages, there’s a bit about what recruits look at. by conference.
under facilities in the ACC, they have State has tops.
is this true? i thought we now had the best facilities.
Marcus –
“Rath, I’m obviously quite a bit younger than you.”
Join the crowd.
“What’s a malt shop?”
It’s the place right between the buggy whip store and the phonograph store.
A malt shop is the Neanderthal version of Baskin-Robbins. Except they had marble-top counters (real marble, not this phony stuff) and stools you could spin around on.
Still and all, aging isn’t as bad as it’s alleged to be. You can hide your own Easter eggs.
Speaking of UNC’s run to the championship: Here’s what I’ve discovered (and it did take some time but anyone else can check the data, too).
In the past 20 years, only two teams have had a tougher road than UNC in 2009 based on (cumulative seed totals). Here are the top three.
1. UNC in 1993 (33)
2. Syracuse in 2003 (34)
3. UNC in 2009 (35)
When I was a kid and having fun with my friends, my parents would ultimately step in and tell us to “turn off the music and settle down”. Kinda like this thread. Thanks, Dad!
^^^we talking Sutton’s, rath?
i used to get cherry cokes there from time to time.
In life things only seem to get better when we have hit bottom. Are we there yet? If not I saw we are close. We did survive an 8-20 season to come raging back, with a different coach mind you. I am taking any win as a good thing and the losses I am becoming numb to. You get hit enough times you become numb to the hits but this makes the wins that much sweater now. Things will get better history has shown that. We have a great blog family here, and yes brothers and sister will often fight but as long as we all respect each other all is good.
On a different note THF, I love all your movie comparisons & quotes.
I haven’t read this post yet or the comments, as I just finished reading the conversations from the previous post. However, this should help ease some minds:
http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/school?schoolId=153&page=briefingroom&season=2010&id=6866&action=login&appRedirect=http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/school%3fschoolId%3d153%26page%3dbriefingroom%26season%3d2010%26id%3d6866
HTTE –
Sutton’s! You got it, mostly. Sutton’s is a bit more modern than a true malt shop. But Sutton’s is right from my era.
Just for clarificaion, not all that many people got a malt at the malt shop. It was mostly milkshakes. And not this synthetic gloop they have at McDonalds — I mean an actual milkshake, with actual ice cream.
Gosh, I thought at 35 years old I’d be one of the younger ones on here.
If you’re too young, you definately missed the good ole “Colonial Drug Store”. Man, 32 ounce orange aids, limeaids, lemon-lime aids, the whole works.
Its really going to be a shame when 10 years or so down the road no one will remember the Rathskellar.
My, is Franklin Street ever changing now.
yeah, its not the same.
at least Ye Olde Waffle Shop is still there!
Folks, let’s face it, UNC fans are spoiled (not that there is anything wrong with that). We’ve had so much success for so long that we are just not used to losing. You’d have thought that the 8-20 season would have brought us down to earth a bit, but I guess not.
The problem with our success is that there are a lot of folks out there who rabidly follow UNC basketball, and not all of those folks are logical and/or smart and/or level-headed. That’s the nature of the game, and of course those folks are always the people who bark the loudest. While the Heels are down they’ll come out of the woodwork, then they’ll bitch & moan for a while, then when things get better we’ll never hear from them again. For those of us who really care about Carolina, not only the sports but the University itself, we’ll just discuss what is happening and then move on.
Roy isn’t the greatest coach of all time and he has his flaws as we all do. However, he seems to be a really nice all around guy. His players like him, his colleagues like him, his friends like him, so I’ll like him. He runs a clean program, manages to win a ton of games, and he represents the University that I love in a great way. That’s about all you can ask for from a coach. Will he have some down times? Sure, but we all do and there has never been a coach that hasn’t (save maybe Anson Dorrance, but even he isn’t perfect).
william –
A couple of reflective posts you have there.
College sports have been eroded by this one-and-done stuff in a way analogous to how pro sports have been eroded by free agency. Fans can forget about rooting for individual players, because they could be gone the next year for a fatter signing bonus.
One of the ten zillion reasons I was in love with TH is he made a commitment for four years and kept it. I know that was principally because he loved college life, but to me “commitment” has an actual meaning, and its meaning is not “do what you want when you want, especially if there’s money in it.”
It annoys me no end when a player makes a verbal “commitment” and then switches. That is not a commitment; it’s meaningless hot air. It also annoys me when a player leaves school early. Yes, I know many of our players have, most recently Lawson and Ellington. They were great players and indispensable to our winning the championship, and I’m grateful to them for it. But college is four years, and not everything can be about money. Money is overrated. If your family is in desperate straits, that’s one thing, but that is very seldom the case.
With respect to complaints about Carolina’s horrific season so far, we should keep in mind rule 12:
http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/020227
Though Sutton’s is gone, McDonald’s drugstore in Durham was still there on Ninth street last time I was there (no I didn’t go to Duke, I went to high school at NCSSM). Another true malt shop with spectacular chocolate milkshakes.
I tend to agree with you rath about the commitment thing, however modern day college athletics (especially football and basketball) have never been about what is best for the student-athlete (despite what the NCAA always says). Universities and conferences look at these kids as cash cows, and boy do they deliver. I have no problem with these kids using their status as a ball player to improve their finances, whether it is by going to the NBA or becoming a coach or landing a job as an analyst. These kids are used, and often abused, by the system, so turn about is fair play.
Now the relationship formed between a coach and a kid is a bit of a different story, and I think most coaches genuinely care about their players. But of course most coaches will have no problem telling their kids to go pro early if the chance is there, and they potentially stand to lose the most by the player doing so. And these coaches make oodles of money, and these kids are a big reason why. Why should a coach make tons of cash coaching basketball and then expect his players to play for free for 4 years?
Another point about the whole going pro thing that I think is often overlooked is why we attend college in the first place. Sure, it teaches us many life experiences, etc., but there are a heck of lot of folks out there who are doing just fine who never stepped foot on a major college campus. We spend the money and the time attending a school like UNC because we feel that it will increase our chances of success and of making more money when we graduate. That has got to be the reason, otherwise you could put that $50,000 (or more) in the bank and go to a community college (and probably still get a decent job). So why fault a kid for leaving early when he can potentially make hundreds of thousands (or millions) of dollars doing what he loves? That is reason we are going to college in the first place, right?
DoctorB,
IMO, that’s one of Simmons’ all-time best articles. Rule #20 is of particular importance to me, but I am also very fond of rules #7 (applies more to the pros; I think “we” is a little more acceptable in college sports if you are a student or alum of the school) and #14.
THF is written will rule #7 in mind. I did not attend UNC and obviously I do not play basketball there so I never use “we” when referring to the Heels. If I were running a UNCG blog when I would probably use “we” at times.
This sort of forum of course encourages impromptu and immediate posting, but the basic rule of never send a message when you’re angry works here, just as it does with email and letter-writing. It often is therapeutic to write the comment, but then to not send it. Just copy it to your clipboard for later review and editing.
I do think people have their expectations too high, which, while this season is disappointing anyway, has made it seem that much more dire. So it may take UNC another *gasp*
four years to win another championship. Is this really a bad thing? Did people have the implicit expectation that next year’s class will win a championship in only two years? I do wonder if part of the problem at home for the team is the pressure to do it all now from us fans. They play tight. They alternate between hesitation and trying to force plays.
expecting this team to COMFORTABLY make the NCAAT is far far FAR from too high.
Probably most of us UNC fans on here who are alumni had to be dragged kicking and screaming out of Chapel Hill. “Just one more semester, Dad, Please!”
But I can abide the three year guys fairly easily because there is no reason a student cannot finish the curriculum in three years fairly easily, if he or she goes to summer school. Tyler came from a blue blood family and he almost certainly has goals in life that require graduating with good grades. But as Elton Brand once said, not everyone has a daddy, so I can’t blame anyone for making their decisions to leave early, especially after three years. Heck, some of us are upset that some guys don’t leave early….
The situation with J.R. Smith was a bit laughable and that is one reason why I don’t spend a whole lot of time on recruiting. They will be Tar Heels when and if they get here. I know they changed the NBA rule, but there is still big money to be made in Europe. (Harrison, I hope you are not reading this.) I think two years is a better rule, if they are going to have a mandate at all and hopefully we will be seeing that.
But a lot of these kids in such a hurry need to realize that they are much more likely to turn out like Joe Forte and Jarvis Crittenton than Kevin Durant. $1.3 million might seem like a lot of money but just wait till the government, the agent and all your relatives and hangers-on take their cut.
I try to teach my kids that life as a sports fan is an asymmetrical existence.
1) Your highs are never as high as your lows are low,
2) Your lows occur much more often …(annually for Pack fans
I was and still do hope that Roy and Company will blow away conjecture number 2.
Looking around the nation for parallels to our current situation, I think what happened to Florida probably bothered Gator fans much less than what we are currently experiencing because Florida is primarily a football school.
But UNC has a lot comfort in its misery, with basketball schools, Arizona,UCLA and UConn experiencing very similar glitches. Georgetown and Kentucky had their comeuppance last year. Syracuse and Maryland have had similar seasons as well, and Duke might not have had quite as bad a season as the aforementioned but they did have a year where they went 8-9 in ACC play and went out in the first round of the NCAA tourney, I believe. Arkansas is not really regarded as a first-rate basketball power anymore.
Basically, that leaves Kansas and Michigan State as the only schools that have won NCAA titles in the last 20 years, which have not experienced a severe correction at some point after winning their title.
I obviously am not saying that this season was inevitable because I don’t think it was, but going through this type of mediocrity of a season seems to be more common than we might have thought.
Listless effort, home losses, no hope of finishing at or near the top of the ACC, NCAA tournament appearance in doubt, no improvement throughout season… Personally, I think its understandable to be upset about these things because we suffered through it once before and many of us assumed that the hiring of Roy Williams meant we would not have to suffer through it again. It is just shocking to suddenly feel like we are back in the doldrums of the Matt Doherty years again, but that really is what this is starting to feel like.
^^ Don’t forget Duke in 1995, too. One thing UNC going for it over both UConn and Arizona (aside, of course, from the last two titles and the top recruit in the country) is that the Heels appear to be much more stable at the head coaching position.
“It is just shocking to suddenly feel like we are back in the doldrums of the Matt Doherty years again, but that really is what this is starting to feel like.”
I just can’t see that. Yes, this season’s performance has not been good, but Roy has SO much more credibility and experience as a coach than Doherty did. There was no reason to believe that Doherty could turn it around because he really had no track record. Nothing could be further from the truth with Roy.
HeelYeah –
This just shows how different two perspectives can be.
I didn’t go to college to set myself up for a more lucrative job. I went because that’s what you did after high school. No other alternative was even considered. My parents would never have permitted me NOT to attend college, even if I’d wanted to do something else, which I did not.
I then went to grad school, again not to increase my value in the job market but to AVOID the job market. I had figured out that the “real world” was less than it was cracked up to be and that being in school was something of a racket. My parents, who always placed a high value on education, were happy to go along (plus I got a fellowship, and that helped).
After that I went to law school, still figuring that it was better than doing eight hours in an office, which it certainly was.
I don’t hold the view that college athletes are victims of exploitation, but even if they are, “commitment” still means “commitment.” I think instead that big time college scholarship athletes have a pretty good deal. They get their education and a lot of other stuff paid for; they’re celebrities on campus and have, shall we say, social opportunities other students lack; they go on neat trips; and they know they’ll have a much better chance than others of making a living from coaching or teaching summer clinics, even if they bomb in the classroom.
If that is exploitation, I wish someone had exploited me.
The Doh Years included losses to Binghamton, Hampton and Davidson. This season is not even close to that. It is looking more like Duke’s 1995 season though.
C. Michael and THF –> The last time UNC fans were disappointed or experienced a less than stellar season, that freshmen class helped win a National Championship as seniors, so that helps the comparison a bit.
The Doh Years included feeling like there were no post season accomplishments to look forward to, and the possibility of getting humiliated against almost any ACC opponent. Those are the similarities that I had in mind.
L8N,
Good call, and in actuality, it is really the last two times. For as much dap as the 2006 team gets, at this point in the season they were 11-5 and 3-3 in the ACC. Missing the tourney was a distinct possibility and the idea of them winning 10 of the next 11 (10 ACC games, plus Arizona) was unfathomable; and that was with Reyshawn Terry and David Noel playing like we hoped Deon and Marcus would be able to play this year. It took Roy two recruiting classes and 3 years to really get UNC back to where they were consistently great.
8-20 was obviously not good. But let’s not get hung up on the names of the schools we lost to, or the raw loss numbers. I don’t think Pomeroy has that year formatted anymore, but I seem to recall that at least two of those no-name schools you mentioned might have been in the NCAA tourney. UNC ended up, I believe, playing about the 3rd hardest schedule in the country.
Everyone likes to say 8-20, ha!, but UNC went 4-12 in conference, which while not good, is quite a bit better than the 2-14 Duke notched during Backache-Gate, or the 3-13 last place finish that Wake had after Chris Paul left. UNC lost three times to Duke that year. Who else in the country played a team that good three times? They had Maryland twice. Who else in the country played a team as good as Maryland twice?
UNC also didn’t play in any tournaments that year, which normally are good for a couple of consolation game wins, and ended up the season playing a remarkably low number of games, as they also would in 2004. I have never really understood why so few games were scheduled in those two years.
The story of 2003 is not all that different from 2002. UNC had a tough schedule and crippling injuries.
UNC showed a gradual improvement over four years, from 2002 to 2005, with the biggest jumps coming in 2003 and 2005. Roy arguably underperformed in 2004 and then most people would say that he and the team met expectations in 2005, given that they were picked to win it all by many publications.
I disagree somewhat about 2006. UNC had lost twice at home in 2006 at this juncture, compared to three times this year. Those losses, to comparable teams to the losses this year, were, however, at least competitive.
This year, UNC has gotten blown out at home twice for an entire game, and once for a half, against GIT. Obviously, UNC also got ripped at Clemson.
The 2006 team lost one game by blow-out the entire year. The 2006 team had lost their top seven guys and obviously were not ranked in the top five.
I don’t know why C.Michael keeps trying to point back to that year to convince us somehow that is really wasn’t as great as we all remember. His stats are great but here they don’t work, even if you could compare two different seasons. We were expecting the NIT at best, that year.
I also think that the 2007 was by far UNC’s best team in terms of talent, if not seasoning. Brandan Wright was far better than Ed Davis and that team still had Reyshawn Terry. They had bad luck and a year where Florida was probably just a little bit better.
@THF, great post, thanks for helping everyone keep it in perspective.
Great comments by all, so need to to re-hash. Perhaps we’ll look back on this year as the reason we won the title in 2011 or 2012, when this group of freshmen and sophomores learned (the hard way) what it took to be a great team.
I think it’s reasonable to say it’s unacceptable to miss the NCAAT, and I think Roy and the team would totally agree with that sentiment. If Roy didn’t care and was riding the success of last year, he wouldn’t be so grumpy.
THF and C.Michael –
It’s a foolish man who argues with those who know more.
However, since this never stopped me before, why start now?
The reason this season feels dreadful is that it IS dreadful. Repeatedly we have seen them run out of the gym. Most recently they were run out of THEIR OWN gym by a team with one good player. We were also subject to humiliating runs by Syracuse, Kentucky, and Clemson. I think we also gave up a 23-2 run at the end of the game to some nothing team (Presbyterian?). I thought it was meaningless at the time. Now I’m not so sure.
The play often seems incoherent. I used to say “disjointed” but it’s gone beyond that. The mistakes are with elementary stuff. The substitutions seem chaotic. We have zilch inside power. Our leaders aren’t leading. The coach admits he has no plan. I won’t go on on pain of being thought “negative,” but there it is.
Perhaps the most troubling thing is that the trajectory is downward. We are not the same team that beat MSU. Indeed, at this point, I have to wonder whether we’re the same team that LOST to CoC.
That there are even comparisons to the Doherty years tells you how bad things have become. For me, those comparisons are a source of misery, not of solace from thinking, “Well, it’s happened before.” And beyond that, “before” was years ago, and time has dulled the pain. The Virginia game was less than 72 hours ago.
For years I got through the winter by happily anticipating our next game. Can anyone do that now? I’ll WATCH the next game, sure — indeed I’ll watch them all — but I’ll do it holding my breath for the next big meltdown, the next humiliating run, the next turnover extravaganza.
This is no way to live through a season. If there were EVIDENCE we were going to start playing better, I’d be the first to seize on it. But I don’t see it. If it’s there, help me out here and tell me what it is.
2006 was great, because it ended great, but up until this point, the 2006 wasn’t that much better than this season.
- UNC was 5-1 in games decided by 14+ points in 2006. This season they are 9-3.
- The average (Kenpom) ranking of 2006′s non-con opponents was 140, with 4 in the top 100 (3 T20). The average ranking of 2010′s non-con opponents is 150, but with 6 are in the top 100 and 4 are T20.
- The average rank of 2006′s first 6 ACC opponents was 55. This year it is 40.
So yes, this team has been blown out more, but it has also played more top competition.
I am not suggesting that the 2006 season wasn’t great, it was, but again, that had more to do with a fantastic ending than anything else.
The tough reality for this team is that the next 10 games, based on average rank, are tougher than what they faced in their first 6 games, or what the 2006 team faced in their last 10.
“For years I got through the winter by happily anticipating our next game. Can anyone do that now?”
I can. I look forward to seeing how they face adversity, how they grow, how they will eventually redeem themselves. Plus I just like UNC basketball….it’s an adventure to me. They are working hard and trying, for my entertainment. I’m sitting in the stands eating popcorn. Within that arrangement, I don’t have the leverage to be all that demanding. Just a different way of responding to the situation I guess.
No idea at this point how the season will turn out, but if it remains on this trajectory, then as others have pointed out, there will be lessons aplenty for the players in reflection, and I’m sure they will take those to heart. In that regard, the season won’t have been a total waste. I wonder if the same can be said for many of the fans.
“I think everyone should experience defeat at least once during their career. You learn a lot from it.”
Lou Holtz
My focus is on the conference games for 2006 and 2010.
I have no doubt that we made terrible judgments about our non-conference opponents this year, compared to 2006. We should have been playing fewer top ten type teams and also fewer patsies, but that is water under the bridge now.
In 2006, through six games, UNC had a -5 point disadvantage over their opposition, a 3-3 record, with 3 of the 6 games coming on the road.
In 2007, through five games, UNC has -21 point disadvantage over their opposition, a 2-4 record, with 4 of the 6 games coming on the road.
Obviously, you would rather be in the 2006 team’s shoes at this point based on mere differential, record and game sites.
Both teams were very inconsistent, although it is no surprise that this year’s edition is even more inconsistent, coming in at an astounding 283 out of 331. Hey, Clemson is even worse in terms of consistency. on the bright side, sort of, UNC is very unlucky this year, coming in at 275. The numbers for the 2006 squad were 203 and 187.
Subjectively, however, UNC’s blow-out victories that you mentioned were actually games that the opponents were still in the game in the last several minutes of the game. UNC was well out of the UVa and Clemson games before the ending. UNC has also had serious scoring droughts in several games lasting several minutes, which I guess makes sense because we are so inconsistent.
I don’t think anyone has any idea where this team will go next. It wouldn’t surprise me a bit, however, if we were to lose the rest of our conference games, except for the two games against Duke.
I agree with 52. I’m not sure that there is any evidence that they will turn it around this year. Sure, we’ve seen glimpses, even recently, of what they can be, but there has been no evidence that they can do that consistently. That being said, even if this season turns out to be totally disappointing, I would fail to see that as evidence that the program is in trouble.
“Obviously, you would rather be in the 2006 team’s shoes at this point based on mere differential, record and game sites.”
I agree, if nothing, for the 3-3 ACC record alone. And again, I’m not trying to denigrate that team’s accomplishments, I am simply (and maybe over emphatically) trying to point out that that team’s play over the first 6 ACC games in no way foreshadowed what was to come.
“It wouldn’t surprise me a bit, however, if we were to lose the rest of our conference games, except for the two games against Duke.”
2-8, with the only two wins against Duke? That would SHOCK me. 8-2 with the two losses coming to Duke would be less surprising, IMO.
Interesting question, though. If forced to choose one of those two scenarios, which would people take? I know I’d take the latter.
I don’t think there is any evidence that players learn anything at all by losing, except maybe how to lose. If there are any lessons from it, no one knows whether or not any players will take it to heart. People talk about transfers but one can only wonder if any players might actually be told that transferring is in their best interest, as in the case of Cliff Rozier.
Players keep talking in code about “some guys” not getting “it.” I don’t know who these guys are, but maybe some of them will either be graduating, going pro or transferring….
I don’t think anyone will be transferring…
Well, strictly speaking, obviously such a pattern of wins and losses in their last ten games would surprise me. I merely mean that this is a team that should have a picture of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde on their jerseys….
By the way, since January 1 (seven games), opposing starting backcourts have outscored Carolina’s starting backcourt by an average of 37.1 points per game to 15.7 points per game….
^Yeah, that stat is murder, although it doesn’t include Graves in the backcourt, it is still shocking. UNC has historically been outscored by their opponents backcourts due to their style of play, but not by a 22 point margin.
exhibit A
By the way, since January 1 (seven games), the opposing 2 big men have outscored Carolina’s 2 big men.
A stat that was not suppose to happen because of UNC’s “dominating” front court and because of UNC’s style of play.
I point this out because I think that the previous stat about backcourts is meaningless and simply creates dissension. We could easily start arguing about passing errors vs alligator arms in the T.O. margin.
Tell Adam Lucas. I stole it from him. How dare the official UNC site create dissension.
Ugh, I had a terrific reply (really) but I hit submit and I think that it was lost.
I saw the same post here yesterday and I just didn’t like it. CM is correct that part of it is the system. Historically, opponents guards outscores UNC’s guards; last year with Ty and Wayne was the exception but UNC would still get hit by the “player of the decade” type games from opponent guards. I wonder if what Adam really means is that opponent’s SG are hot, while ours is not.
i posted that yesterday along with the career days that opposing players have already had against us.
Lucas includes the CofC game, which only makes it worse(i think he did that on purpose!), so if you take that out, its down to an 18 point margin.
Carolina teams are never going to shut down the 3 point line. but what cant happen, what HAS happened, is the penetrating drive down the gut of the D.
if you arent stopping the 3, then where are you that you cant stop the drive?
LarryS –
Would you happily anticipate our next game if you thought it was going to resemble our last game?
We have one player, Will Graves, among the top twenty in scoring average in the ACC in conference play. We have no one among the leaders in field goal percentage or rebounding.
Drew is leading in assists, although I am not sure how significant the assist category is anymore, given that it is a subjective statistic, as opposed to objective ones such as scoring and rebounding.
HTTE –
An excellent point. It’s one thing to give up a lot of three’s IF IN EXCHANGE you are successfully packing the middle so as to cut off lay-up’s. But that’s not what’s happening; we’re giving up the three’s AND giving up the layup’s, from penetration, slow reactions, missed assignments, you name it.
“Would you happily anticipate our next game if you thought it was going to resemble our last game?”
Of course not, rath. But, to me, the last game is history. The next game is a chance for improvement and renewal…looking forward. That’s just the way I look at things. It’s kind of like the cowboy who, when asked how he went about saddling his horse, replied that he usually put the saddle on two different ways – forward or backward – depending on whether he wanted to see where he was going or see where he had been.
Of course none of us can KNOW how the season will turn out, but we can make an informed estimate. It’s not like we have nothing to go on. The season is two-thirds over. To think of informed prognostication as an impossibility is, IMO, denial.
The best way to make an estimate of what to expect is not to look at how the 2006 team, with a 100% different cast (except for Ginyard) played. It’s to look at how THIS team has played over the last month, taking into account the quality of competition we’ll be facing from here on in.
Using that as the measuring stick, agnosticism about the next five weeks is not where this winds up. Gloom is where it winds up.
Preferring happiness to gloom, I was looking for evidence that would give a reasonable person a factual basis for thinking we’ll do better than we’ve been doing.
I don’t want to be down about it all. I don’t want the team to be down. I don’t want the fan base to be down. But I have lived long enough to know that you can’t make something happen merely by wanting it to happen. You have to DO SOMETHING. I just don’t know, based on the evidence on the table, what that would be.
LarryS –
How eager one is to take a forward view depends in significant part on what the facts tell you it’s going to look like.
The present facts tell me that the more promising view forward is not so much to the next game as to the next season.
First 5 scores by UVA, an open 3 and 4 layups. I stopped tracking.
After the last game, I was not looking forward to the next….Tar Heel baseball crossed my mind. Then 24 hours later I found myself checking the schedule.
boulderHeel –
You’re an addict. Me too.
How about this measure. Consider what important contributing players you have really enjoyed watching or liked personally since 2004 on the various teams.
For me, I really liked Felton, McCants, Marvin Williams, Sean May, David Noel, Reyshawn Terry, Wes Miller, Tyler Hansbrough, Danny Green, Brandan Wright, Ty Lawson and Wayne Ellington as players and probably most of these I also personally liked as people, but I would also add Jackie Manuel, Quentin Thomas and Jawad Williams as guys that I liked personally from afar, even if they were not my favorite guys out on the court.
On the current team, I think Henson, the Wears and Larry Drew seem like nice fellows. Deon seems pretty nice. Ed Davis seems to be a decent sort. I don’t have much of a feel for Strickland’s or McDonald’s personalities yet.
Which of the current guys has a game or a style that I really related to, or thoroughly enjoy watching? I think Zeller has shown flashes of style at times, as has Larry Drew and Strickland. Perhaps Ed Davis at times can be okay to watch, but honestly, this is the most boring basketball team to watch at UNC since 1990, and quite possibly, since 1965.
There is a running joke on the IC boards about Roy Williams’ refusal to recruit what they call “cold-blooded athletic killers” for his squads, which apparently means players like John Wall or Carmelo Anthony. Aside from “cold-blooded athletic killers” being fun to say, it sure would be fun if we had at least one guy who was fun to watch. Our top player right now is sort of clunky and chubby.
Another way to think about it might be, would I as a UNC fan be really, really upset if player X left UNC. I certainly am not saying I want anyone to transfer or advocating that, but I am not sure that there is a single guy on the team who has gotten significant minutes that I would miss watching if he were not to return.
I don’t know if I can remember any other years for UNC basketball where I felt that way, possibly one of those years at the end of the 1980′s perhaps….
rath, you can rain on my parade all you want to. I have a very good umbrella.
from Wral:
Zeller who has been out since mid-January with the injury, is no longer wearing a walking boot, but a more specific timetable for his return to the court won’t be known until more test results come back, some of which will be conducted on Monday.
Some other tidbits from coach Williams’ Wednesday session with the media:
- Though he has tried and it still trying to instill confidence in a team that sorely lacks it right now, Williams is tired of having to worry about his players’ mindsets.
“It’s time to play basketball,” Williams said at one point. “I’m tired of worrying about players’ psyches.”
- Some have wondered aloud whether Williams would begin to bench his older players in favor of giving his younger athletes more time on the floor as a way to prepare for next year, but the Hall of Famer quickly dismissed that as a possibility.
“I can’t give up on these kids like that,” Williams said.
- Williams admitted Wednesday that he has had to try things with this year’s team that he had never done in his 21 years of coaching, including playing a zone defense on baseline out of bounds plays. Also, a special zone offense he thought would already be implemented by this point, has been put on indefinite hold.
that sentence:
“Some have wondered aloud whether Williams would begin to bench his older players in favor of giving his younger athletes more time on the floor as a way to prepare for next year…”
uh, NO, thats not what THESE some have wondered. not as a way to prepare for next year. but as a way to WIN THIS YEAR. i’m not giving next year any thought at all!
HTTE,
The underlying point though they WRAL missed is this feeling that winning and losing is almost secondary to this team simply playing better. He just wants them to get better period and the result is nearly inconsequential.
Larry Drew had some interesting things to say. He said Roy was on edge and had a short fuse and he does not blame him based on the way the team has played. He also said Roy has done more team meetings and more talking. Basically he is in teacher mode trying to motivate them.
Roy is a very good coach, but just think what Eric Taylor could do with these kids….
william,
One item we should discuss related to your “slight changes to the program” observation is player development.
The Carolina Program (and largely Dean Smith) was renowned for their player develop from year to year and over a player’s career. It is one item that most Carolina fans hold over Duke Fans when talking about K. “K can’t develop big men or look how that McDonalds AA’s game declined once K tried to fit him into his system”. That is the part of the program that I worry about changing from where Carolina develops players and improves their games over a 4 year period vs. not developing a players overall skill and only using specific skills of a player to fit your team or program.
I think of how players like Kupchak, Wolf, Bucknall, Chilcutt, Lynch, Hubert Davis, Calabria, etc. developed their games under Dean Smith and improved as players year after year. Of course there were disappointments who either plateau or never developed as expected like Reid, Scott Williams, Hunter, Madden, Hale, Rice, and Reese; but those we’re rare instances and usually were more disappoints compared to expectations not development from freshman to senior seasons.
That is why players like Capel and Lang, and now Thompson and TWSNBN are so disappointing because these players are exceptions to the norm at Carolina where their games are basically the same or worse as seniors as when they were freshmen.
Now Roy has had other players that have improved yearly such as Noel, Terry, Green, etc. not to mention star players like Lawson and Ellington that improved each season. Now alot of the lack of development can be attributed to a player in the program just as much as the coach. But I definitely don’t want to see a trend where fewer players improve their overall game each season in the mold of a Ellington, Noel, or Terry and are replaced by players like Frasor, Thompson, or TWSNBN whose games plateau after their first season and only specific skills are used to benefit the team. Hopefully, we can track Henson, McDonald, and the Wears and we’ll see that next season and the season after they have developed into better basketball players with well rounded games versus being players with a specific skill that Carolina tries to utilize to help win games for the program.
L8N,
I would like to comment on the link you provided pertaining to the On the Trail News of UNC’s recruits. I think if we paid better attention to how some of these kids played we may actually have a better idea of how they would turn out. I will admit I didn’t follow Henson in high school but I did follow Hansbrough and I am currently following Barnes. You can tell who are the special ones and who will probably be role players even at that level.
scl11,
I would put Hansbrough on the list of players that developed from year to year. Hansbrough’s game evolved and he improved his skill set every season. Of course his work ethic had a lot to do with that and he probably had a great attitude when it came to heeding instructions from coaches. I think player effort plays a huge role alone with proper utilization and instruction by the coaches.
Along those lines, during the pre-draft period last season the comment was made that Wayne Ellington looked like more NBA ready whereas Gerald Henderson was said to be yet another Duke player who lacked development.
^Agree THF, and I think those types of examples are what is driving such major disappointment and sometimes anger towards the current senior performances this year. And that is why I refer to Lang and Capel because what were seeing from the current seniors is the type of development we saw under the Guthridge/Doh era and not what we expected under the Roy William’s era.
Dean did seem to have some guys that just showed monstrous improvement. You mentioned Kupchak and some other good examples. Darrell Elston was another, as was Hubert Davis, and Rick Fox. Even Mike Peppers getting to start was somewhat miraculous in terms of improvement. O’Koren, Reid and Williams maybe were stagnant somewhat. Hansbrough was pretty good to begin with. His free throws improved, but his offensive rating didn’t go up a whole lot after his freshman year.
Some of that with respect to all these guys is luck, some is inspiration and some is coaching.
Another couple of things that have been mentioned is the notion of playing favorites. All coaches probably do this, but most coaches would never admit it, any more than parents would about their children. I think it is probably better to not admit to having favorites.
THF mentioned the issue of some player’s parents contacting Roy about their children. This is probably something that happens in every program. The HBO show about a basketball coach, Hung, shows him getting calls from parents about playing time. What I don’t understand is how it makes it out into the media. Actually, I do. What I should say is that I don’t know why it gets out into the media. In my opinion it shouldn’t.
Danny Green is gone now, but I think there is still a bit of a raw feeling among some UNC fans who feel that Green deserved far better treatment during his career at UNC, in terms of playing time and also in terms of basic respect.
I have written about certain players having terrible games for UNC during final game losses, and yet, who did Roy blame publicly for the loss to Georgetown?
Here are some quotes:
Williams called Green’s shot with UNC up ten against GU “one of the worst shots in the history of college basketball” when he met with reporters after the game. “I don’t know what he was thinking,” Williams said. Later Williams would tell Green, “I don’t think I’ll ever get over that shot.”
So, for anyone who thinks the fanbase is being too hard on certain players this year, I haven’t seen anything here or on IC as ill-considered or downright rude as what Roy Williams said about Danny Green after the GU game, a game that I desperately defended Williams for when many criticized his end-game tactics bitterly.
You won’t find Dean Smith making a comment even remotely like this about a mistake by one of his players during a game.
Sometimes players peak at a certain point. Then again it also depends on the work ethic. Supposedly Ginyard worked really hard to get back into shape and met his conditioning goals. However the play has not panned out, especially since the last ankle problem. Of course Graves hurt his ankle and has been good since coming back.
“Now Roy has had other players that have improved yearly such as Noel, Terry, Green, etc. not to mention star players like Lawson and Ellington that improved each season.”
Felton, Hansbrough, and May all improved each year, too, and honestly, Deon is a lot better now, than he was as a freshman. Is he having the year we thought/hoped he would? No, I would say not, but that doesn’t mean he hasn’t improved since he is been here. I would argue that MOST of the players Roy has had at UNC have improved and of the ones who didn’t, most of them (Thomas, Frasor, Ginyard) also dealt with a multitude of injuries over their careers.
When talking about whether Roy’s players improve during their careers it would be cherry picking not to include his Kansas teams as well.
I don’t think Green got that much of a raw deal. His relationship with Roy was far from perfect and certainly not the same as Hansbrough and Roy but at the end of the day what is his chief complaint? During his junior season when he started behind Ginyard he was touted as the best sixth man in the country and widely regarded as the spark off the bench who came in hitting huge shots to life the offense on some 10-0 first half run. Yes, that would have still been the case had Ginyard not gotten hurt but still he became a starter, was a key player in the title run and was named to the ACC all-defensive team.
Were there bumps in the road? Sure. Some of that was Roy and some of that was Green who often times said too much to the media about things Roy wanted kept in house. However in the end he made out just fine.