Roy Williams during his postgame press conference:
I told them if they take this and learn something from it and change then you can still get something. But if you just say “oh well” you’re not going get anything from it. You’re not going get anything from it if it hurts if you don’t change and we’ve got to change our behavior. Even the last play of the game I am trying to run a play for James Gallagher because he hasn’t scored all year along. We can’t even listen and pass the message along to the other people. But if you can take something that’s this bad and hurt from it and learn from it and change, then you got something you can take. But if you don’t change then you are not going to get anything from it.
Now let me say upfront that Roy Williams has made his share of mistakes with this team. The handling of John Henson and Dexter Strickland are the foremost. We could also spend a day and half talking about whether mistakes were made recruiting. Roy’s part in this mess is evident. That being said, the above quote screams at how crappy the attitudes on this team have been. If the head coach is hoping that a 32 point loss to an archrival during the last regular season game might be something they can use to change their behavior that tells you all you need to know about this team. In other words, the loss to College of Charleston, the humiliation at Clemson, vs Virginia, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech on and on and on were not enough bring some sort of change to how the players on this team conduct themselves. Hey, maybe getting ripped by Duke will do it!
On the bright side, there is one hope. Maybe we will be able to forget this season as quickly as we forgot the national title run of 2009.
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and credit to Roy for being aware, in a nightmarish lopsided defeat, that Gallagher hadnt scored all year, and trying to get him a bucket.
I’m gonna (again) write something here on Roy’s behalf. As this season comes to a close, and we get further and further away from it, I HOPE that most of you regain some perspective on just who/what Roy Williams is.
It has been said here (and elsewhere) that none of our ire can even come close to how Roy feels about this season. The only situation (that I can think of) that might be comperable (for Roy) would be his first year in Lawrence, when the Jayhwaks lost eight games in a row. Still, that team scratched and clawed their way back to a decent finish.
Once again, you can’t coach passion. When you lay it down for Dook to take from you, you don’t have the passion necessary to compete at this level. Pure and simple.
I would not be surprised if at least one of these players comes out in the off-season with a Tweet or throwaway interview line about transferring. Perhaps this is Felton-McCants-May all over again, but this is happening with Roy at the helm. That is why, with the exception of the mismanagment of both Stickland and Henson, I cannot put further fault at Roy’s feet.
Shame on Ed Davis for not having the heart, and/or the guts to step up and set the tone.
Shame on certain players who were apparently not listening to a coach who, coming in to this season, had won at an 83% clip while in Chapel Hill. That this players are still not listening defies common logic. I am ashamed for them. Let them go on and live their lives, and enjoy their youth, but if I don’t see some passion soon, then I will force myself to detach from UNC basketball until SOMEONE shows the slightest bit of interest in not only winning, but quickly restoring this program to it’s rightful place atop Mt. Olympus (okay, I would settle for the top-three programs in college hoops tag).
As for the departing seniors, I truly beleive that they deserved better. Deon Thompson truly, in my opinion, exceeded expectations over four years. He came in overweight, wearing that rediculous head band, and then transformed himself into first a solid role player, and then a double-digit scoring threat who had some good moments. No one ever said that Deon would suddenly become a defensive stopper. If our record were 24-7, for example, people might be appluading Deon’s consistently and/or “quiet leadership.” Who knows?
Marcus Ginyard…give it some time, everyone. Look at the entire body of work, and then make your judgement on the career of Marcus Ginyard. I wish things had turned out differently for both he, and the rest of us, this year.
But again…
To any of those players who still insist on not listening to Roy, or do not quite take their involvment in this program seriously enough…
Leave RIGHT EFFING NOW. And don’t look back, because Harrison Barnes, Reggie Bullock, and Kendall Marshall want your jobs. And from what I have seen, they intend on competing, listening, and working to get better every single game.
John Henson, thanks for being the lone bright spot towards the end of this year. Please return with a vengeance next year.
Any team takes the character of its leader and/or PG. This team’s leader is Deon Thompson (the man with the fragile confidence) and pg is LD2 (who really doesn’t care). Thankfully Deon is gone (where to I don’t care, but good luck to any team who decides to take him) and LD2 will be the second string guard next year (unless he transfers, which is a big possibility). There are also a bunch of players who do not belong on the bench. I told most of my friends after the first couple of ACC losses that this team does not compete, they do not have the fire. That unfortunately is very true now. Things need to change drastically, and some of it involves personnel changes. Some players do not belong on that bench and if they do they definitely should not get more than a few minutes playing time.
^ Deon Thompson: starter on two final four teams, recruited ahead of Thabeet, Zoubek and Harangody, if this is improvement then sorry I will settle for the latter three. He does not have “quiet leadership”, he has no leadership. If you think Ed Davis should be stepping up and boss over the coach’s pet, buddy you have no idea. Shame Deon Thompson! For three years I heard that he did not develop under Tyler’s shadow, what excuse does he have now? I will tell you, NOTHING!! He is the most uncompetitive player on the team content to get his numbers and show nothing else beside that.
Marcus Ginyard, I have seen his entire body of work and the best thing he ever did for the team was to make way for Danny Green in the starting line-up.
Change has to come from within. Somebody in that locker room has to get sick enough of losing to not only elevate his own play but get in the grill of anybody else who doesn’t do the same thing. If there is nobody in the current group who has the personality to do that, then Roy will need to recruit someone who does.
I’ll give Dook credit for this – good or bad, they always play with a chip on their shoulders. Even in their worst seasons they didn’t loaf around or give up, like we did last night, and in several other games this year. That’s a personality thing. And we need to recruit some of that personality. Our National Championship teams had that personality. All of our Final 4 teams had that personality. Heck, with the exception of the 8-20 team just about ALL of the Carolina teams had that personality. Yet, this team has chosen instead to have the same personality as that 8-20 team – and I’m not exaggerating – they really do. The body language, the on court demeanor, the lack of improvement and lack of concentration – they are all reminiscent of a team that was so unthinkably terrible that I thought surely we would never see anything like it in Chapel Hill again. But its back. The names on the jersey are different, but the personality of the team is the same. These players ought to be completely ashamed of themselves for resurrecting that monster during a year that follows a National Championship, and saw four new jerseys go up in the rafters and countless greats from the past came back to Chapel Hill to remind everyone of the high standards that Carolina Basketball used to represent. They should be so ashamed of how much their sorry effort and personalities and play detracted from all of that.
Well that’s it. I know its negative, I know its harsh, I know people will be ticked off at me for saying it, but its also the truth. Put that epitaph on the tombstone of this season and bury it – and this time bury it deeper then we buried the 8-20 season …and stick a wooden stake through its heart and cut its head off and please please please don’t let it ever come back again.
Like all the rest of us, I’m not sure what Roy can say that hasn’t been said. Saying the team has to want to change its behavior is obvious, but all the behavior change we are capable of probably wouldn’t have mattered last night. And you can’t just say it’s all about wanting it. I mean talent, chemistry, experience, and confidence are pretty dang important too.
Sure, we were embarrassed, but a likely best-case scenario was a 12-14 point loss. Duke was ready. They were much better. Payback has been festering for a long time, and their best players played really well.
We were banged up more than usual, and looked lost and helpless most of the time. But when you accept the fact that we just don’t have the savvy and resolve this year to overcome something fairly simple, much less the complete Cameron onslaught, then it’s a little easier to see how we got steamrollered.
Sometimes you just have to take your medicine and move on. And I’m not too worried about how all this bodes for the future. A year removed, some fresh (quality) troops, filtering through who really wants to be here and who doesn’t, and a new start can make all the difference in the world in helping break the cycle.
It’s hard to say what all has happened within this team this year. My gut tells me that there is an inside the locker room story that has not completely come to light. This team is fractured and riddled with bad attitude. Why, I don’t know but you can see the lack of chemistry and apathy that has existed all year. Combine that, if that is what it is, and our overall lack of basketball acumen and this is what you get. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a Carolina team with a lower basketball IQ and lack of desire. Combine that with a much lower atletic level from past teams and the end result is 2009/2010. I have watched every single minute of every game this year and somewhere in the 1st 1/4 of the season it all went terribly, terribly off the rails. I now have one team to pull for in the NCAA tourney and that is anybody that plays Dook. I am humbled as a fan and that makes me appreciate the teams from the past all the more.
They got steamrolled bc they quit when the score was 12-3 with 18 minutes left in the first half.
Larry that’s on you my friend. Failing to lead all year, but last night he look liked he didn’t care, and I think he might he gone.
I can’t believe they didn’t even compete against duke. Wow we are a lot farther away then I thought.
Here lies the 09-10 tar heels the worst team ever in UNC history. Happy 100 years of college basketball.
Not showing heart in that game in inexcusable. Not showing heart in that game means change has to come from outside, from players who have heart. I can accept a bad team, and I was fine with that all season. I figured they simply lacked confidence. But not even caring about this game means they lost me. There are some scraps to pull from the pile, but the rest can be pushed into the dust bin of history. There is nothing to build on, to change from within, when you can’t bother to care.
I’m not really adept at defining heart, measuring for it, or recognizing who has it and who doesn’t. I can generally recognize different levels of effort, and I do know that when people get really down and lose their confidence, effort can be one of the first things that suffers. No excuses though.
But when we talk about this team’s heart, are we talking about everyone? Just some? I think saying everyone doesn’t care is pretty knee-jerk, and fairly inaccurate. Otherwise, you just may as well get rid of everyone and start over. Is that what we really want to do? Not me.
^ use last night as a barometer or future measuring stick. Last night only 2 guys played with heart, dex and John. Look at the faces of larry and deon, and that will show you what it looks like to play without heart.
We need to send this kids to OZ, like the tin man, to get them some heart.
I am done defending any one on the team not named Dex, Roy, or John
Larry, heart can be defined loosely as having pride in the team, program and in the players’ abilities. Heart is not giving up. Unfortunately this team lacks those attributes. The only players who showed that kind of fearlessness were Strickland earlier in the season before Roy effectively emasculated him, and Henson recently and he tends to get his minutes curtailed in favor of Travis Wear!! As for the rest, Deon Thompson, LD2, etc I seriously question their effort and commitment to this team.
I would prefer if the LD2 transfer rumour were correct. Better to have someone with talent brand new to the position than to have him return as #1 PG after showing no leadership or smarts this year or to fester on the bench as a backup creating bad chemistry for the team. Glad Deon is done. Am concerned about the upside potential of the Wears and I hate to admit it Zeller also. I know Z has had limited PT but he sure looked lost offensively and plays really small. Maybe with a new GOOD surrounding cast that is actually an offensive threat, he will be able to blossom. I sure hope so because, IMO Davis is gone and that leaves us with the Wears, Henson and Zeller, a not very experienced front line. Henson’s development is critical. He has the most upside potential particularly if he puts on some muscle and Roy turns him loose.
On another note, after that beat down, I think we’ll only be watching one more game unless the NIT takes .500 teams.
Well, I can’t disagree that Deon has never really had the face of a true competitor. And I can’t disagree about Larry either. I don’t know I would say Marcus gave up last night. I’ll have to go back and look at the game. Looking forward, I also don’t think this will be an issue with Leslie or the Wears or Will.
I still have this lingering feeling, though, that this team will be characterized the most for it’s lack of “heart” and effort, as if that was the whole story. It’s not.
Lack of effort has been apparent. Roy has harped on it. The players have admitted it. But sometimes these self-characterizations catch on, and get so repeated, that it just becomes the collectively accepted mindset and excuse.
How many times have you played someone in a game, and lost, then said “I could have beaten you if I really wanted to”. It’s just not the nature of an athlete or coach to admit they lost because they weren’t as good as their opponent.
We haven’t been good for a number of reasons, not the least of which is effort, but if a team really wanted to mask its abilities that would be the first excuse.
The thing that makes me the saddest about UNC basketball is the guilty feeling that comes after one of Roy’s favorites gets hurt to the team’s benefit. We have already been through this with Frasor and then Ginyard and now it has happened with the Wears.
Why would anyone be surprised about last night’s result? UNC’s starting guards made two (2) shots between them. How can you beat anybody when you get that kind of production from your backcourt? Why would any team even bother guarding Drew and Ginyard? 36 and 30 minutes were sucked up by these two, to no good effect.
I know we are going to be flooded with comments about how great Ginyard used to be and how great Drew will be. No, he wasn’t, ever, and no, he won’t be, ever.
Honestly, in the history of UNC basketball, there have many bad performances. But I don’t know if there has ever been a performance as flavorless as that of Larry Drew last night against Duke. He spent 30 minutes on the court without scoring or turning the ball over, without really doing anything except take up space.
Add in Will (I can’t shoot away from home) Graves, who chipped in 0 points of his own in 23 minutes and you have a backcourt performance for the ages. As many people on here have noted, Graves is our best shooter.
I know Zeller needs to work on his hands, but maybe getting him some more time might help. At least his offensive efficiency is decent. We all know that Henson played well again but only 23 minutes, and this time it didn’t all go to Wear, who notched only 8 minutes–it only seemed longer because Travis dribbled the ball off his shoe three times in those scant 8 minutes….
I said a couple of weeks ago that if this was draw poker, there were only 2 guys that you would definitely want to keep, and what I said looks more true now than ever. As the rumors about Davis dribble out, what most fail to understand, except for perhaps SCL11, is that these revelations, if true, reflect much more poorly on Roy Williams than they do on Ed Davis, who is only 20 years old, after all.
Ultimately, I am going to say that there almost has to be dissension on this squad. When we have seen similar performances, in the ACC finals in 2001 or against Maryland in 2003, it became clear that there was a clash of wills on the squad. It really isn’t possible for talent the caliber that UNC has to play so poorly without something like that happening.
Everyone who watches live says that UNC rarely tries up to its level of ability, even Vitale. Unlike Vitale, though, I don’t see how you can absolve the head coach.
Say what you want about K and Duke, but even their most dissension-laden squad, the one with McRoberts in 2007, was worlds above our current team.
What has happened here is something far different than just the adjustment after winning a national title. We are seeing a perfect storm of youth and injuries, combined with bad recruiting, combined with bad coaching and combined with a coach who has apparently lost control of his players and his own emotions.
Very sad.
I agree with the dissension theory. I don’t know if any one noticed last night but at one point the camera was really tight on LD2 as he slung a pass to his left with a real pissed off look and appeared to be muttering or saying something that didn’t look particularly nice. It looked like he was unhappy with the spacing or movement he was being presented with at that point. I don’t know if I’m reading more into that than is warranted but it didn’t look like “team spirit” to me.
And remember when Pomeroy had us losing by 19 at Duke?
He must be biased towards UNC or something, missing the margin by 13 points like that….
I really don’t care how bad this team is or how bad everyone assumes these players are, it’s terrible and depressing to see people wishing transfer or celebrating graduation among our own players. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I don’t understand how we can be so cruel when talking about our own players. I just don’t get it. We as fans are frustrated, I know, but it hurts to see how hard we can be on these kids. All we can do is hope and pray for a solution to the problems we’re having this season. And if possible, try to retain a positive attitude.
william,
The scary thing about the situation this year is that it was not anticipated. There is a full roster of players, which was recruited by a very successful staff, headed by Williams, but with the contribution of several others. The record of previous success is phenomenal. Many public comments by those who speak for the program have been initially unclear and then increasingly desperate.
Sure there were injuries.
Yes some players may transfer or try to go NBA.
But how are they going to get past this?
The perimeter play was ridiculous. I know Graves is hurt, but overall they did not bring any real effort after those first 3s by Duke.
Somehow the returning players have to get a new attitude. It seems that the coaching staff needs a new humility and flexibility. Something has to happen to build confidence. The players have to want to win and do what it takes. Look at a guy like Hansbrough; he would have killed himself trying to make this team win.
Maybe some of the graduated players can help these guys over the summer. Prayer and inspiration are nice. But there also has to be consistent hard work. Just as one tiny positive, Henson has been hitting more of his free throws. And Dexter Strickland looked plenty mad as he tried to break forward several times on the transistion dribble.
these kids get a free education to one of the greatest institutions in America, all they are ask of them is to play hard, and to play with passion for that university. Last night only 2 players did that. That is why people are hard on these kids, not because they are not talented, its because they are disrespecting the history of UNC basketball with performances like last night.
It is disrespectful to go to Cameron and lay down after 2 minutes of play. These kids play spoiled off of success that none of them contributed to, yes Deon and Marcus were on those teams, but really they just got a ring, and made some baskets.
Even Roy quit last night, and it is hard to stomach, watching on ESPN you coach, starting center, and PG quit on national tv, because it was getting to tough.
Thank you goes to John Henson and Dex, they hate losing, but are not allowed to contribute the way they know they can, and its killing them.
Its crazy that the season is over
Well, people are tiptoeing around the issue.
I am not saying that I want anyone to transfer, but if certain guys want to transfer, I don’t think most UNC fans will be shedding any tears. In terms of guys going to the pro’s, well there is a certain selfish aspect to that to begin with, but I think people get tired of being held hostage by mediocre talents. It is one thing to pray for a Lawson to return; it is another to pray for Ed Davis to return. Just make up your mind, Ed, and let us get on with repairing the program.
Graduation happens to everyone, who stays and doesn’t flunk out. Certain guys, after four or five years, you just start to tire of, especially if they are not world-beaters. Honestly, I think I started having Phil Ford fatigue after four years, even though I was probably the only one, but I was ready to see some new styles of play and they soon arrived with Al Wood, James Worthy, Sam Perkins and Michael Jordan.
Marcus and Deon are pretty much plodders. You often need plodders to win, but a team based upon plodders can be expected only to plod, or worse, as we have seen this year….
I have read many diverse “reasons” for this season being what it has turned out to be……a disaster!
It has been said that “everyone has a stupid side”. I agree for I have seen proof of this daily thoughout my life. When a combination of 3 or more players and/or coaches display this side during any given game that then forces Murphy’s Law to come into play. At full force too!
In a season and by a team that defies logic, this is about as logical as anything that I can think of or that anyone else has come up with. Just simple cause and effect. No deep thinking required. You are welcome. That was easy. Next question?
AZACCFan we get past this by:
Harrison Barnes coming in as a Lebron type leader. Not comparing him to Lebron skills wise, but Harrison has to come in day one, and be Alpha Dog. Make everyone accountable and build a personality for the team. I think Barnes has a chance because of his leadership qualities, and work ethic. He starts bustin his ****** in practice, and getting in peoples faces, they will start following him.
2nd and another big!! Marshall has to come in and win the job day one, he might not be as fast as Ty and Ray, but if he can lead and drop dimes like cota will be straight.
You add a leaders/go to guy + a floor general, and mix in Zeller Henson Strick, Bullock and LMAC, you can have a pretty decent squad. top 25 type
All I know is that these players have taken disappointment to whole new level. All the planning and preparation that went into celebrating Carolina’s 100th year of basketball. The two Alumni games. The throwback uniforms. The raising of a Championship Banner, a Hall of Fame banner, and 4 Jerseys up into the rafters. The stage was set – everything was in place for a season long celebration. The University did a great job of putting events together to make this season feel like one big long festival. And these players completely spoiled it all. All these players had to was put together an average season – 20 wins, finish in the top half of the conference and then win just one game in the NCAA tournament and 90% of the fans would have been satisfied, and spent the whole year enjoying all the other events that surrounded this season. After all that planning and preperation these players couldn’t do their part. Instead the whole season was spent wondering what the hell was wrong with our team. They ruined it. They behaved like some drunken groom who shows up late and unshaven on his own wedding day and ruins the whole event for everyone else.
I don’t claim to be any basketball genius, but perhaps because I seem to be less clouded by the “Roy’s Got Two” syndrome, it was apparent to me that this team had real, season-long problems after the Syracuse game.
What was clear from that game was that we had a squad that was not athletic, not talented, not fast, not intelligent, and not well-coached.
Many people balked and said it was only one game and that Roy knows more than anybody, but if anyone kept the videotape, go look at it. Our guys didn’t even know where to stand during the Syracuse game in the second half.
I am willing to accept that there is more uncertainty and instability in the college game these days. Perhaps part of the price of being a UNC or Florida and winning multiple titles is a downswing, but it certainly didn’t have to be as bad as it turned out. I really do wonder if Williams had a reaction similar to K’s when he lost Deng and stopped going after the one and out, and two and out types.
Regardless, we need to realize that now, paradoxically, after the most successful five years in UNC history, Roy has also, along with Matt, given us the most erratic ten years in UNC basketball since the early Smith era.
We have failed to reach 20 victories this season for the second time under Williams and the fourth time in the last 9 years. That is far short of Smith’s standards. We have also had our fourth season in the last nine without a winning record in the ACC, two by Doherty and now two by Williams.
Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Smith only had one such season and only at the beginning, finishing up with over 30 straight winning seasons in the ACC, and 28 straight seasons over 20 wins. And for all who think it is an easy journey back to the Final Four for Roy, he went from 1993 until 2002, without taking Kansas to the Final Four.
makeitWayne22
That scenario would be fine with me. What is hard to believe is how something like that did not happen this year.
“Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I don’t understand how we can be so cruel when talking about our own players.”
Reality often sucks. These posts are realistic appraisals of the players, particularly their effort. How can we be so cruel? When the players being criticized look like they don’t give a sh*t, that’s how. They’re dealt the talent they have but they have to show they give a crap about the program.
I believe that UNC needs to get back into the top ten as soon as possible. It is easy to fall off the map quickly these days. Our dual match-ups with Duke help keep us in the spotlight but after a few more like last night, ESPN might even lose interest. Obviously, the Maryland game the other night ended up being much more of a big game than ours with Duke.
“Regardless, we need to realize that now, paradoxically, after the most successful five years in UNC history, Roy has also, along with Matt, given us the most erratic ten years in UNC basketball since the early Smith era. ”
You could also say the same thing about the erratic years at UCLA and Indiana after John Wooden and Bobby Kight left. Those coaches, along with Dean Smith, are legends for a reason, and it’s why we should never forget Dean’s incredible consistency.
Although Roy’s record at Kansas, and his total body of work, is among the best, there has been a tendency to quickly elevate his UNC tenure to kingly proportions (be honest, I know there are some of you out there who think he is better than Dean Smith). This is based largley on how quickly he got those national championships, and it shows how much they are possibly disproportionately valued. The real test will come in these next ten years.
_____________________________________
The thing about scholarships is, it’s easy for fans and critics to look at certain recruits and say they were mistakes, or that they wish they would transfer, or that they are glad they are graduating. I sometimes do the same thing. I’m sure coaches feel the same way, though they would not, nor could not, say it. I even heard the announcers of the Louisville/Syracuse game yesterday recall how Rick Pitino thought he had made a mistake when he recruited Kyle Kuric (Soph. G). But Kuric got better, and finally had a huge game yesterday in a very important situation.
Reputable coaches have to honor and live with those scholarship offers, and try and do the best they can to make everything work out. Sometimes though, when they really get on a recruting roll, they tend to be supremely confident about their choices. I really wonder now if Roy is having any second thoughts. Who knows, he may have them every year with one or two.
I’ll really feel better in a couple of months when we see how all this is going to shake out. At least we’ll know who is committed and what we’ve got to work with. And hey, I’m just like everyone else…I have my favorites, and ones I think will probably never really do more than take up bench space. I actually have 2 players on this team that I wish would leave, for various reasons, but I just have a sort of natural aversion to making them known. If they do leave, I’ll do like I always do and wish them well.
CarolinaBlue74,
I’m not going to get in a cyber-spat with you over this, but I did not say that Deon has shown “quiet leadership.” Rather, I had said that (perhaps I should have inserted the word “ironically”) if the team’s record was better, say 24-7, a lot of people would have been praising him for quiet leadership. My point is that if the team had won more games, you would have witnessed a more varied collection of opinions on Deon’s performance…that’s all.
Also, don’t tell me I have “no idea.” I know that we are all pissed, but I’m saying that the reflection on some of these players may recquire a bit more afterthought, down the road. Hell, back in the pre-season, when everyone was giddy, several on this blog were calling for Matt Doherty to be welcomed back with open arms.
I won’t soon forget the God-awful tone of this season…I hate it more than I can put into words. However, I am entitled to criticize an Ed Davis without hesitation in that he is just as capable as Deon Thompson in stepping up and providing some on court leadership. I’m tired of the “upside” talk, let the NBA draft folks carry that conversation…I just wanted to see more fire out there.
In closing, I was in no way defending Deon’s lack of leadership, or his defensive lapses. I was merely pointing out that he is who he is, and that to have expected more of him was fool’s hope at best. I am SO very upset with his performance…maybe you have no idea.
It would appear that the real Marcus Ginyard wasn’t what/who some of us had hoped. He did have a part to play in the highly-adored 2005/2006 team’s performance. He also had his moments defensively. Yet, I did not witness him pumping the fists, or getting in a teammate’s face to inject some fire, nor did I witness ANY sort of development on the offensive end…
Yeah, I’m just as upset as you are…but every UNCH or ABC type out there love getting on blogs such as these and watching us unravel. They want to see us behave irrationally, or is if we have never been there before. Well, we HAVE. I agree with an earlier post about how the 2002 mentality is back. I would like to think that we have that feeling IN CONJUNCTION with the belief that this team will improve next season.
Damn, you got me fired up…wish you could have been talking to this team at some point this year.
A few thoughts:
– It’s not just that the team plays without intensity; it’s that they had an impossible act to follow, that being Hansbrough. The shadow of his give-everything spirit hangs over this entire season. We weren’t going to match it in any event, but to fall this far short was appalling.
– Whoever said that we need some tough guy from Philly or Chicago nailed it. It’s not just our shooting and ball handling. It’s that we have no wide body underneath to clear out, get rebounds and put opposing forwards on their rear ends. This is a major reason we looked (and were) soft.
– Assuming the team comes up short in the heart department, that is still, to a considerable extent, on Roy. It’s true that he didn’t create the problem. As head coach, however, it is up to him to DEAL WITH the problem, and he never did. When you’re paid that amount of money, it’s not enough to say the right things at the post-game PC. You have to figure out what’s wrong AND CORRECT IT. He didn’t.
– You could tell there was something wrong as early as the Presbyterian game, and not because of the ejected fan incident. It was that we gave up a 26-2 run. The game had been decided at that point, true, but North Carolina does not give up 26-2 to Presbyterian EVER.
– If that didn’t sound the alarm bell, the CoC loss certainly should have. Instead, what followed was a bunch of rationalizations that it was CoC’s game of the century, it was a tiny, pressure-cooker gym, we just made a few rookie mistakes at the end, etc. As we were to find out in the following weeks, rationalizations have finite utility.
– Ginyard got too many minutes but his lousy play most of the season was, I believe, due to injury. I think he’s a good guy, just not that talented. He’s the kind of person who represents us well, whatever his basketball deficiencies.
– We expected Deon to be something we ought to have known he wasn’t. He simply doesn’t have a leader’s personality. The fact that he didn’t turn out to be one has nothing to do with Hansbrough’s shadow. It has to do with the way Deon came into this world. His effort on the floor was deficient, and he takes the considerable blame for that, but how can we blame him (or anyone) for being who they are?
– Strickland has plenty of talent and fire, but went downhill starting immediately after Roy called him out for taking, and hitting, a key shot. It was Roy’s worst single discreet error of the season, and it cost Strickland, and the team.
– Henson is a ray of hope. I just wish he had gotten untracked before two-thirds of the season was over.
– The Wears are role players, but I agree with THF that you can’t be all that hard on them. They’re freshman and, to be pragmatic about it, absent the Philly or Chicago tough guy, some bulked-up Wears are the stongest players we’ll be able to put out there next year.
– We are not going to return to the customary level of success with Drew at the point. His attitude is wrong for the position and his skills are, well, inconsistent.
– What is there to say about Zeller? Because of injuries, he’s never had a full chance. We should give him one. He has a world of work to do, but I sense a good player in there.
– As I’ve been saying, please, no NIT. It’s not going to change anything or improve anything. It is past time for us to understand that this is a lost season and to just get it over with, ASAP.
Finally, to UNC33 and JBB, I took note yesterday of your remarks about your friend who got a liver transplant. I wish her the best. I got mine on October 11 at Georgetown University Hospital, saving me from near-certain death.
One of the inscrutable mysteries about college basketball is what happens off season. The coaches spend huge time recruiting players and then they go into the fifth dimension before starting fall practice.
This just makes no sense. The players can apparently get together on their own, but not be observed or interact with coaches.
How does this help?
Current competitive athletes in every sport maintain all sorts of work to be competitive. Bball is a team sport. Individual work is fine, but they need to learn how to play as a team and ACT as a team!
Wow Rath,
I did internship at Georgetown in Surgery. I am glad you are OK.
It puts things in perspective. Yes?
“Even Roy quit last night, and it is hard to stomach”
And you know this how? Did you hear everything Roy said? Did you watch him the entire game and can share with us what he was doing outside of the times we saw him on camera? I understand saying that about the players but I am going to have to ask for some evidence that Roy quit.
william,
Simple question: How many times did Dean deal with the level of attrition that is common now? How many seasons did he have nine scholarship players miss at least one game?
I love Dean but it is impossible to know how he would have fared with this team or use his career and say somehow Roy is a failing as a coach because he had two sub-20 wins seasons. The landscape has changed quite a bit and sandwiched in between those two sub-20 wins seasons was some of the best basketball in program history including two national titles and a ton of wins. That alone should be enough to give us some pause in the degree to which we are ripping this coach but for some reason we it doesn’t.
AZACCFan –
It certainly gives you a different perspective, that’s for sure. There’s an old saying that there is no feeling as exhilerating as getting shot at and surviving, and that’s pretty much what I’m feeling right now. Still, as you undoubtedly know, it’s a big, nasty operation, and it will take months to recover from it. By the time next season rolls around, however, I should be back in as good a shape as I’ve ever been, if not better.
Thanks for your comment.
THF –
None of us knows how Dean would have done with this team. One thing we do know is that Roy didn’t figure it out. I don’t say that he quit, yesterday or ever, and I doubt he did. But our record was worse than our talent, and the head coach has to be first in line for accountability.
Roy has proved he’s among the best in the business. In terms of overall record, we fans have no grounds for complaint; indeed what we have grounds for is gratitude. But for this particular year, he was not up to the task, and is rightly on the hook for it.
If I could ask the coach, “how will things change next year and why?”
I think sometimes what I would like to ask Roy, if we were out having a few cold ones (Hell, I don’t even know if he imbibes), and imagine him telling me “I’ll answer any question you ask, as long as you don’t repeat it, especially on THF blog.”
How many of you would honor that condition, or disguise the source of the information?
I have to echo LarryS’s above comment. I have been reading this blog for three or four weeks and I can’t believe some of the negative things that have been said about Roy Williams. This has been a terrible season for all UNC fans but nobody has felt worse about it than our coach. He’s human and he’s made mistakes this year, but placing all the blame on him is unreasonable. We should all be hoping he coaches at Carolina for another 15 years.
We need toughness? Sure, I can agree with that, but if Dexter Strickland can’t take criticism on one play this year from his coach, then he obviously lacks the toughness we’re looking for. Now, I think Strickland has enough talent and potential to be a quality player, but if he let his season go south because of that then maybe he should re-evaluate where he’s at and go to a program that sets the bar a lot lower than North Carolina.
Dean Forever,
Applause for your post.
Last night’s game stank, big time. But this is my team and I will not throw them or the coaching staff under a bus. I will work on my own patience.
^^Strickland just needs to spend the season developing a consistent three point shot. With his quickness, if he can force defenders to not sag against him he’ll be able to drive to the basket at will. As far as toughness goes, its going to have to come from one of the new guys. Nobody currently on the roster has it.
we have debated the tone of our blog posts here in the past. a blog we dont even know that the players read.
how bout a Tweet directly to a player?
from John Henson…
@adamlawson89 go somewhere else wit dat ish bruh….
in response to this:
@johnhenson31 I’m just being honest. you played well, but why doesnt anybody else seem to give a xxxx?
and at adamlawson’s Twitter i see this:
@DeThompson21 What the xxxx is your problem? why dont you give a xxxx? you’re embarrassing the uniform!
PS: i did the editing of the profanities. adam lawson dropped the f-bomb and s-bombs.
Good news: Strickland is not transferring according to his tweet.
unc steph –
Strickland will wind up being a valuable player for us. You could see in the first part of the season that he has the tools.
rath-Glad you got your transplant. I hope you are doing well. And I love Strickland. I really hope no one transfers.
I want to clarify my earlier post. The “heart” thing is not the same as “giving up”, nor is it that I think the guys didn’t each try. It’s their collective heart I’m talking about. I cannot point to any particular player and say they didn’t show effort IMO. There was obviously some very dejected/exasperated body language, and a serious lack of camaraderie in any way, even if it was confrontational. I don’t know if it’s passive-aggressiveness or apathy, but I suspect it’s the latter. Despite John Henson’s comment from the previous game about believing in one another and holding each other accountable in a positive way (as opposed t pointing fingers) more, we didn’t see an ounce of that. The team did not show up even if each guy did. I think that’s why they looked so scared, lost and overwhelmed. You would be too if you thought it was 13 against 1.
Also, when I say that the change has to come from outside, I just think that these guys have seriously mindf&*%ed themselves, and a new leader without this burden will have to come to turn things around. I am not talking about players needing to leave, transfer, whatever. I’m talking about a leader who has not been affected by this because I think these guys will turn it around when someone changes the team chemistry. I just think that expecting the same group to change their poisoned mindset is asking too much for such young fellows.
If I met any of these guys, I would smile, and shake their hand, and if their season or performance came up, let them know that I know they have great talent and skills. I don’t question them as individuals. I do, however, know that they are not a team, not because of malice but apathy.
Rath, glad to hear you got the transplant too. My wife is a nurse and she’s explained how difficult the recovery is and I will surely keep you in my prayers.
BIG loss by Clemson to Wake. they had a 3 seed slip to a 6.
its going to be very hard for a team to ever win 4 games in 4 days.
Talking about next year, how can 3 freshmen bring in the leadership that this team needs? What will barnes play like the first time he plays at duke or maryland? This team is in a serious hole that I think will take at least 2 years to come out of. We better hope ed davis comes back.
Also, I cant remember seeing mcdonald play last night. What happened to him?
^Sometimes leadership is more about the individual players’ personality and natural ability than his age or experience. In the absence of upperclass leaders, sometimes the young guys might surprise you. Also, I feel players can evolve from one year to the next. Some of the guys from this year, who may have been hesitant to step forward, may grow, as with their games, and take on more ownership of the teams’ direction. This is certainly what we all are hoping for.
Barnes, as well as Bullock and Marshall, may do well against the likes of Duke or Maryland. Ty Lawson and Brandon Wright both did very well against Duke their freshman year, and we won both times, though there were some other very good players on the team.
Leslie McDonald pulled his hamstring in practice and wasn’t available to play against Duke
Rath, I’d love to hear your story about the surgry. As I was told by my doctor that I have liver abnormalities.
Rath, I hope your recovery goes well and you and your family are in my prayers.
The best thing and worst thing about college basketball is kids graduated. MD will have a huge drop off once vaquez leaves. If Duke happens to lose either Smith or Singler or both, they also will have a drop off. I think John steps up this summer as the leader, and Barnes helps him command. But John has a chance to be the heart and soul of the team next year.
UNC33 and unc steph –
Thanks. I was lucky, real lucky.
partsman5521 –
I’d be happy to tell you the story. I think THF wants to keep the site centered on basketball, however, and I don’t blame him. I think he has my e-mail address, and if you e-mail me, I’ll take you through it. One thing you should do promptly is get an MRI and have your blood analyzed for AFP, which is a tumor marker.
Andy –
And thanks to you as well. The recovery has gone astonishingly well so far. The doctors let me travel 6000 miles to Hawaii 17 weeks after surgery, which is quite unusual.
Thank God it’s almost over, probably one more loss and we can put this year behind us. With the exception of Henson, and maybe Strickland I don’t really care about us losing any of these players. This team has cancer patient written all over it and the more of it we cut out the better. Look at it this way, anyone we lose through transfer will free up a scholarship that we can use to recruit fresh blood.
I know I’m generally against this type of negativity but I can’t sit here and lie about what has to be an incredibly substandard year given the alleged talent on our roster. We have to hope that Barnes, Marshall and Bullock are able willing and allowed to contribute on the court and be leaders in the locker room from day one next season.
As to the player’s that stay, I hope anyone that leaves this summer for individual training see’s their playing time dramatically reduced. I hope that our very best former players come back to Chapel Hill this summer for the pickup games. I really hope that Tyler is one of them so that these guys can learn what effort really is. I hope that the coaching staff evaluates the strength and conditioning program and fixes whatever is broken with it. I hope they reconsider some of their coaching and recruiting techniques. I hope they realize that if they produce another team next year that performs like this one did, that it’s not the players it’s them. And finally I hope I never have to witness another season of Carolina basketball like this one in my lifetime.
Is it really possible that something could be wrong with the shoes they wear. I hope roy is looking at the training regiems.
Something has to be wrong in strength and conditioning or equipment or playing surfaces. Have you ever heard of a team having this many stress fractures in such a short period of time? It’s simply unheard of in my experience.
ugatarheel –
I couldn’t agree more about getting it over with. I hope Roy will have the modesty and good sense to turn down the NIT, if an invitation foolishly is offered.
On the player front, I think you’re being a mite harsh. Zeller has never really had a full chance, what with the injuries, and should get one. Graves improved significantly from last year, in terms both of attitude and production. He’s never going to be a star, but he’s our only three point shooter the opposition actually has to worry about. The Wears have their limitations but seem to know the game and put out effort. Besides, we desperately need size and strength, and, with a lot of time in the weight room, they’re our best hope. Davis lacks fire, but overall was our most productive player and could start for any ACC team.
I don’t think you or any of our commenters is to blame for “negativity.” We got a “negative” performance from the team, one of the poorest in decades, so anything other than a poor performance appraisal would be less than candid.
I took my sons to see Avatar today, which was a lot more fun than basketball has been this year.
THF,
I think I was the first one on the thread to talk about how the game has changed since Dean was coach. Yet, we don’t have to compare Roy to Dean, we can compare Roy to his contemporaries and Dean to his contemporaries. When you do that they come up pretty equal, except, Dean was much more of an intellectual coach and he was much more of an influence on the sport, both in the U.S. and Worldwide. They both won 2 titles, but Dean went to many more Final Fours and Dean was far, far more consistent in comparison to his peers than Roy has been to his.
Dean also coached far better players and sent far better players to the pro’s. Dean was a far better player than Roy was. Roy never even played major college basketball, not even as a walk-on. All he managed to accomplish was to be a junior varsity player at UNC. Dean played on a national champion and actually got in the game, although it was a blow-out against his future boss’s team, Frank McGuire’s St. John’s.
Roy gets the nod in terms of over-achievement, since he came from nothing and Dean grew up in a solid middle class home with parents who went to college. Roy’s parents were an alcoholic and a factory worker.
But let’s not shed any tears for Roy. He is making major, major money, unlike his mentor Dean Smith, who created both him and the program. Given the sums of money that Williams is making, it is hard to cut him the same slack that Smith may have received, had he ever needed slack, because Smith was much more like a public employee.
I will be honest. Roy lost a huge amount of my respect when he went all storm-trooper on the fan during the Presbyterean game. Many of you defended him, but there was no defense for what he did, whatsoever, within the context of American sports. If George Steinbrenner had done that, he would have been lambasted. Roy still owes everyone any apology for his actions there and probably with respect to what he said about Roe. Obviously, he will never apologize for either thing. It is not in his nature.
This University belongs to the people and fans of North Carolina. Dean Smith was an excellent caretaker for 40 years, apart from results. Roy needs to work much harder if he wants to be considered even close to the same type of caretaker.
I am not the kind of person who always says that things from 40 years ago were better, although radios and tuners and most speakers were, but I think Ty Lawson was just as good or better than Phil Ford, and Tyler Hansbrough was just as good or better as a college player as Bobby Jones.
I have now had seven seasons to see Roy Williams up close (and many of you down there have had 3 seasons to see Larry Brown) and, I apologize but Roy Williams is not as good a person as Dean Smith was and he is not as good a coach as Dean Smith was.
I don’t think he ever will be either. But he is still relatively young by today’s standards so the book is still open….
No more posts about turning down the NIT without the person researching whether that is even allowed. Dean Smith started the new NIT and not going is like spitting in his face.
Also, please name me one single team besides Maryland in 1974, that turned down the NIT. Otherwise, please stop with that kind of post.
william –
I haven’t researched it, but why would they be called NIT “invitations” unless you could turn them down? I don’t think it’s like a draft notice.
It is not disrespectful to Dean Smith to understand that this year’s team does not deserve to be in post-season play and will probably continue the embarrassement if it goes. Dean Smith was not an opponent of mercy, and the only merciful thing to do with this season is end it.
I remember Maryland not wanting to go a couple of years ago and they were basically told by the NCAA that they were going.
It is called an invitation because you used to have the option to choose which tournament you wanted to play in and some lesser schools would choose the NIT, like Marquette did a couple of times, because they wanted to play in New York and they knew they couldn’t beat UCLA.
Now, however, the tournament has been bought by the NCAA and they are a bit more demanding. Just, please, the next person who says they want to turn down the NIT, tell us a team who has done so. Both Florida and Maryland played in it after winning NCAA titles. If you can’t come up with an example, then I think we all know that it is a waste of typing to keep typing that we shouldn’t go….
If we lose to GA Tech next week will the NIT even invite us? I don’t think name recognition alone should be a reason for us to get an invite, and at this point that would be the only real reason to invite UNC IMO.
rathskellar68,
Yes it might be a bit harsh, and yes Zeller, Graves and even the Wears might contribute next year, but if for some reason they don’t what have we really lost? We’ve lost a 7ft center that plays small and has yet to put together a full season due to the fact that he is injury prone, and we’ve lost a one dimensional outside shooter who is too short to be a post player and too slow to be a wing or guard. As for the Wears, they might be adequate roll players in the mold of Deon Thompson, Pete Chilcutt, or Matt Doherty, but they are never going to be at the level of a Henson or Hansbrough or Danny Green. And if that means they are taking minutes from Henson, Bullock, or Barnes because they play well in practice or some other such nonsense, then I would wish them well but I would wish they were elsewhere too.
At this point a clean slate is desperately needed IMO. That doesn’t mean everyone has to leave necessarily but it does mean those that come back have to come back with a better skill set or at the very least a better attitude then they showed this year.
They might not, if we don’t have a winning record, but this whole thing about turning down the NCAA is more of a 1974 thing than anything else. Back then, you had teams like Maryland in 1974 and NC State in 1975, who were top ten teams who missed the NCAA tourney and who were so dispirited about losing in the ACC that they didn’t want to play in the NIT.
The one time that UNC was in that same boat, by the way, we did not follow suit. When UNC won the ACC regular season title in 1971 and then lost in the ACC tourney final against USC by one point, UNC, dispirited as we were, went to the NIT and won the title, beating Duke, for the only time ever, in the post-season en route to Dean Smith’s NIT title, which would one day give him the recognition as having won the NCAA title as a player, the ACC regular season and tourney titles, the Olympic title and the NCAA title during his college career.
Erin Andrews reported last night during the game that Roy has already said they are going to the NIT if invited. Not sure why people are discussing otherwise. Now if the other crappy tournaments come calling then you turn them down.
NIT doesn’t require a .500 record, but I don’t think anyone who has gotten in the last few years has had less than a winning record .
First goal: Win ACCT (OK, I’m not talking realistic goals)
Second goal: Win at least 2 ACCT games
Even with the terrible year, it still seems UNC would be a reasonably attractive selection for the NIT. But it would be unlikely that we would play any homecourt (Chapel Hill), host games since I doubt our seed would be high enough. (#4 seed or higher – top 16 of 32 teams)
I think under Roy we have reached highs in shorter amount of time than under Dean. After all, it was 11 years between championships for Dean. Let us not forgot that will Dean was more consistent his teams have produced more “meh” years. What I am saying is that there were a number of years where UNC was in the tournament but really a National Title contender. Under Roy, UNC was a title contender 4 out of the 7 years he has been in Chapel Hill. One of those non contender years was 2005-06. If Roy has another season like this next year, I will be one of the first calling for his head.
In the meantime, I want all of you to take a deep breathe and stare at this for a couple of minutes.
http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l51/arakkala/?action=view¤t=UNCFinalFourFloorPiece.jpg
This is a piece from the 2009 Final Four floor. Very few teams gets to experience this joy. In fact, Illinois fans are still lamenting 2005 because they believe that was their “only” shot to win a National Championship. Our team came through not just once but four times during my lifetime. I am grateful for that.
Is that the plaque that’s in the UNC basketball museum?
“…Roy has already said they are going to the NIT if invited. Not sure why people are discussing otherwise.”
Wishful thinking, I guess, since it is hard to stomach additional humiliation this year.
Its Hansbrough, not Hanbrough
The higher seeded team in the NIT has the OPTION to host the game, but it is not required. Think $$$$
Thank you spelling police. It’s been corrected and I will look out for that in the future.
7YrsBlue –
This season has seen a boatload of wishful thinking. If, as some knowledgeable people here have said, we MUST go to the NIT if invited, then I am in no position to gainsay that. But left unanswered is the question you raise, to wit, why we would WANT to go. The regular season is over, done, completed. We don’t have to guess any more about what the team will be like. We know what it’s like. The realistic prospect that we will do ourselves proud in the NIT is remote. I mean, how many times in 2010 have we done ourselves proud? And how many times have we embarrassed ourselves and our tradition, with last night being the indigestable capper?
It is, as you say, TIME TO STOP.
THF — There are two reasons people would continue the discussion after Roy announced we would go if invited. First, many here discussed for weeks thereafter Roy’s announced decision to stay with Deon and Ginyard as starters. Indeed, it’s only a small exaggeration to say that the entire site has, of late, turned into a (justified) discussion of things Roy previously settled upon. The pejorative term for that is “second guessing.” The more neutral term is “analysis.”
Second, simply because Roy announces we will go is not the last word. Roy does not make that decsion; the Athletic Department makes it. There is only a miniscule prospect that the AD would overrule him, but miniscule is not zero.
william made the point some time ago that arrogance might be a growing problem for Roy. These things are hard to judge from a distance, and I make no judgment. I will note, however, that long before this disappointing season or the fan toss-out or any of that, a number of people here had observed that Roy has a high-handed demeanor on his call-in show. Modesty is a virtue (although, as my father used to say, a wasted virtue), and it wouldn’t do Roy any harm to display more of it.
If this season were a horse we would have shot it by now. If this season were a car we would have sent it to the junkyard as totaled by now. If this season were a beloved family pet we would have mercifully put it to sleep by now. I think that’s why people are talking about us not accepting an NIT invite. It’s not what our team will do but it’s what they probably should do.
They are not going to turn it down. It would look really bad to do so and UNC is embattled enough on the PR front lately due to some of Roy’s missteps. The last thing you want is UNC coming off like a snob by refusing an NIT bid. BTW, Bobby Cremins turned an NIT bid down while at GT. Not sure if you can do it now.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19950313&id=i3UVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=I-sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3987,3297009
Roy definitely needs to make some amends.
Anyone remember that commercial about the CEO whose company had lost a lot of business and during the commercial he is handing out plane tickets to everyone in the office to go visit former clients to try to woo them back. And one of the workers says, “what about you?”
Roy needs to call the Rush family. He needs to call the Roe family and he needs to apologize to that guy he had thrown out of the Dean Dome (as does fellow henchman Robinson), and don’t even try to tell me that Roy didn’t throw the guy out or that the security in that place is somehow composed of neutral state employees. This is a University where we protested Apartheid and yet, our basketball coach throws anyone out if he doesn’t like what they say.
If there is karma, as my father keeps reminding me, Roy deserves every single second of this season for what he did during the Presbyterean game. And actually, not just the guy in question, but every single one of us deserves an apology as well. It is not his venue, and as long as I am not being disorderly or profane, I reserve my frickin’ right to say “don’t miss it, Deon,” whenever I please in our state auditorium.
No one else on here will admit it, but you were an ******, Roy. If this is payback, then please go and sin no more. And yes, thanks for the two titles.
Thanks for the research on GIT turning down an NIT bid, THF.
That was before Dean worked on the reformed, newly acquired NIT, however. That really was a big deal where they specifically sought his help as to how to make the tournament more than just a lame afterthought. It may be on its way out anyway, if the NCAA is going to 96 teams, but at least a team could win the last one…..
One thing you guys are failing to mention is the fact that we are in a near tie with Kansas in all time wins. I think we take any games we can get, and if we could turn down the NIT for a lesser tournament, I say we take that. We need as many wins as possible, even if it means taking the weakest of competition. This season is over, but opportunities to win don’t have to be.
Im at a point right now that I want to schedule as many cupcakes as I can going forward. We need to hold onto that number 2 spot in all-time wins, and make a case for overtaking Kentucky. Then, we can worry about playing challenging teams in the pre-season.
Wins folks, wins. Look at the broader picture instead of focusing in on this one bad season.
Although, half those wins, JBowling, were before they allowed blacks to even attend our University. The teams have also not played the same schedules or number of seasons. The media only report these rivalries because it serves the purposes of UK, UNC, KU and the media itself.
Not that I disagree with your point about going to the NIT, but it is a bit like the Minneapolis/L.A. Lakers arguing with Boston about who has the most titles, or the Cincinnati Reds trying to incorporate the records of the old Red Stockings from 1869.
I mean, really. They didn’t let blacks play and the rules were completely different, but they still called it basketball so hey….
Rugby and American Football used to be the same sport too….
But, back to the point, you can only go to a tournament besides the NIT, if you don’t get invited to the NIT, as was the case for Virginia whenever it was, a year or two ago…. I don’t believe you can just go searching for the worst tournament you can find to rack up victories, even thought that is consistent with the practices of 80 years ago….
Here is my thing. Has Roy made mistakes? Sure. He has made a ton of them this season both on the court and off. Though he won’t admit it he knows what the deal is or at least I hope he does.
My problem with your comment above is it comes off as a little self righteous. Ticking off a list of “sins” and passing edict on how you think they should be remedied is judgmental IMO. I am not going to pretend to know the kind of pressure the man deals with and while I am not excusing his behavior, I am also not going to go too far condemning him simply because I have no idea how I might react put into the same situation. Besides that I commit my share of sins. I say or do things that offend people on a regular basis. I am father of four kids and a husband and that is a minefield when it comes to offending people around you. The difference is I just don’t make them on a very public stage.
My point is I have a hard time passing judgment and demanding penance from people who make commit wrongs on the levels of the ones we are talking about here. For one, that is between Roy and whoever he offended and secondly, for all I know he did make amends for it already. Whatever the case, it is honestly none of my business beyond giving an opinion on it in a very general way and even then what I think is utterly irrelevant.
One more thing. Personally, I don’t believe in karma but if this is all karma like you say then how do you balance out all of the charity work Roy invests his money into and does through various clinics the team does? Has Roy been so bad with all this stuff, the good work he has done is not enough to stop UNC from being 16-15?
let’s just hope that the ACCT and any potential post season play can serve as some kind of building block for next year.
i just can’t wait for this blog to pick back up next year around christmas with talks about how we were down for one year and ‘wow look at the job that unc has done to turn it around’. i really believe that is in the cards. of course before the season, i saw next year’s recruiting class as potential icing on the cake after another great year this year (fail), but i would not be disappointed if these 3 coming in are the next coming of ty/wayne/wright or ray/rashad/may.
it’s hard to have perspective at a time like this, when (and i agree with one of the early comments) this season has been at times worse than the 8-20 season b/c of the potential we see out there. we’ll get it into gear. next year while UK is under ncaa rule violations and has lost 4 starters and is rebuilding again, we’ll at least know that all of our wins this year counted and that we do things the right way and that with the teams we’ve been blessed with recently, sometimes it’s just not in the cards. i’m passed talking about the “why’s” here this year, injuries, coaching, heart, recruiting….it just happens. i wouldn’t trade our two titles and all the FF appearances in for a smoother ride this year, and that’s the bottom line.
i’m looking forward to the tournament and us showing some glimmer of pride that comes along w/ wearing the unc jersey.
No William. I agree. I wasn’t saying that we could do that, I just don’t understand the logic of not playing in any tournament that we can. I will still take my chances on winning a few games in the NIT. Maybe we don’t win any, but we need to try. Before we even worry about playing stiff competition, we need to try to muster up some more wins. Not just to try and overtake Kentucky, but to stay ahead of Kansas. We need to play any game we can, period. This all time wins thing is important to me because it transcends bad seasons. Let’s play in any tournament we’re invited to, and play some cupcake non-conference games for the next few seasons. Close in on Kentucky, and then get back to business as usual.
William,
This was discussed ad nauseum back when it occurred and you still haven’t provided any “proof” to your accusation that it was Roy who had the fan kicked out or what offense he was kicked out for, because you were not there…According to “published” reports he was kicked out for public drunkenness after he was asked if he had tickets for the area in which he was seated…
As for the Rush family, Roy should apologize to him for HIM hiring an agent before he played college basketball??? I don’t get what he would be apologizing for, maybe Rush should apologize for accepting $17,000 from Myron Piggie. And maybe Coach K should apologize to Corey Maggette as well for being duped by him…
After reading some of the some of the comments on here, I think solving Carolina’s future will be simple. We should have Roy Williams consult with the bloggers to THF when he is out on the recruiting trail. Because, obviously, the bloggers of THF are much better at recruiting talented players than stupid Ol’ Roy and his staff.
I mean it is just absolute pure luck that got Roy an .805 winning percentage which is TOPS amongst his PEERS… And those 7 Final Fours and 2 National Championships, all smoke and mirrors…
Hopefully during this offseason, Roy Williams will learn to coach basketball…He has a lot to learn, especially from the bloggers of THF…
JBowling –
I think you’re an astute observer and that you should post more often. In this instance, I respectfully disagree.
What makes Carolina great is not just that we win. It’s HOW we win. We have a clean program and, with very few exceptions over the years, clean players. We play in what is historically a tough league, one of the best if not the best in the country. We don’t duck tough competition even in a down year. We are innovative. Our players graduate.
The marks under the “W” column will look all the same, for Kansas and Kentucky and us. But they will not BE all the same, not if we get ours playing minor league teams. When we become No. 1 on the list, I don’t want the rest of the basketball world snickering that we did it playing Northeast Southwest Nebraska State. I want it to have to admit that we are No. 1 because we earned it.
Louisville turned down an NIT bid in 1987 arguing they should be allowed in tourney because they were defending national champions. There are a frw other examples I believe but in most instances, it was a protest for being left out of NCAA. I believe the only way we could turn down a bid is if we can somehow argue the team is too depleted to compete. Might even be true, but we would probably pay a political and PR price for doing so. A 25 point loss to georgia tech might help avoid all this talk anyway.
Anyone know the last team other than duke beat UNC three times in a season?
Georgetown turned down its NIT bid in 2002 because it was going to be forced to play on the road and the school said that its students couldn’t afford to miss class…The Hoyas had a 19-11 record and would have originally been able to host, but the MCI Center was unavailable, thus forcing Georgetown to go on the road…
“805 winning percentage which is TOPS amongst his PEERS…”
Not anymore. Mark Few now has the best winning percentage among coaches with a minimum of ten years. But maybe we can get Roy’s numbers back up if we go on a run in the CBI.
LarryS,
Nope. That is my personal piece of the Final Four court. They were on sale in May. You could buy a smaller piece like the one I have or you could buy a larger piece with all of the starters autographs.
I take back what I said earlier. If we get an NIT invitation we should accept. I’d rather have another embarassing loss then have people say that we were either to scared or to arrogant to show up for the NIT. Everybody already knows we stink this year. Losing in the first round of the NIT won’t make it any worse – it’ll just be another loss, that would get talked about for a day or two (If it even gets talked about at all – most people will be more focused on the real players in the real tournament). However, the PR fuss that would accompany turning down an invitation could drag on for much longer then that.
I really have no thoughts one way or the other about Roy’s involvement in the fan ejection (I’ve never commented on it) because I have no entirely credible information, other than the random bits and pieces we’ve all heard, about the actual degree of behavior of the ejected ticketholder.
I will say that, from attending UNC games for almost 25 years , there were a few times where fan behavior was so bad (usually an opposing fan but even a UNC fan a couple of times), by one or two folks in our section (have no idea if they were intoxicated or just on an antagonistic mission), that I, and many of the people around me, thought they should have been thrown out. Of those times, I do remember one guy being ushered out, but he may have relocated for all I know.
I do believe the rights of a single ill-behaved, paying ticketholder do not always outweigh the rights to the enjoyment of the game of a much larger group of well-behaved, paying ticketholders.
As for Roy’s other PR mistakes, comments on players, and other missteps this year, though I’m not fond of some of some of it, I can put it in the perspective of the difficulty of his public scrutiny and the pressures of an incredibly unusual and trying year. I do trust he will have learned and will benefit from all this.
It’s a shame to read the Tarheel bashing going on. It disappoints me to see people railing on Deon and Ginyard. All our players can not be Hansbroughs and Lawsons. Deon missed only 2 practices in his 4 years at UNC. I think Ginyard is a great representive of UNC. Give them their due respect. I am not going to quit on these players and this coach. Sorry they are not perfect. But in 2 years this program will be back near the top. I think next year will be better but I also think I lot of people are expecting too much out of the incomming freshmen. We need time to delevope a point guard, be it Drew or someone else. I also think Davis will not be here next year so the front court will need time to become stronger.
But , one really bad year and some sound like State fans. Those calling for players to leave don’t bother blogging in 2 years when these players are winning.
On second thought I have to agree with 850 that turning down an invite to the NIT (if you can) will come off as either arrogant or scared, which would only downgrade the program further. So, I guess its two more gulps of the cod liver oil and then it will all be over.
Regarding “fangate,” it is on youtube. Go look at it. It is clear that Roy got into a verbal sparring match with a fan and it is also clear that after a signal from the UNC coaches, that security moved in. Security did not eject this player on its own; it did it only after being prompted by the UNC staff. That is clear.
Second, no one has ever established that the guy was drunk or anything. No charges were filed, which I guess cuts both ways, but what he said was far from being grounds for being physically removed.
Roy Williams was supposed to be coaching our team, not getting into tiffs with fans. It doesn’t speak highly of his level of concentration, demeanor or self-restraint. I guess he thought he was making some point about how much he loves and protects his players. Only he is allowed to bash them, I guess, although the fellow wasn’t exacting bashing a player by saying “don’t miss it, Deon.”
I suppose Roy is not a fan of sarcasm.
And no, THF, I don’t really believe karma works that way, at least not in the short run. But in 2005, I wanted that title every bit as much for Roy Williams, as I wanted it for the University. I thought he definitely deserved it and I was just as thrilled to see him finally win as I was for Coach Smith back in 2005. I thought he deserved it for his hardwork, for his decency and for his contributions to the sport.
I do think he is a fundamentally good man, but perhaps he is just going through a cranky period. Dean had a difficult period between 1988 and 1993, where he had a few of his least interesting teams. Even his Final Four team in 1991 was probably Dean’s worst Final Four team, and Dean got enmeshed in SAT-Gate and a number of other controversies with K, which paradoxically enough contributed to making the Duke-UNC rivalry the huge rivalry it is now.
Coaching sports is tough. Matt Doherty certainly deserved the same consideration back in 2003 that Roy deserves now, but there were aspects of his personality that probably made it more difficult for people to feel sorry for Matt.
For the first time, really, UNC fans are seeing some negative personality aspects in Coach Williams, and unfortunately most of it has been self-inflicted due to the couple of controversial passages in the book and some of the other things we have discussed.
With respect to the NIT, I am not certain, but I believe it went to the new format with the NCAA running it some time after 2005, although I do think they seem to have gone back and forth some regarding the prerequisites for an invitation.
Ultimately, as someone mentioned, we could pretend that the players need to study or something, but really when you get right down to it, it is like that Nirvana song, “here we are now, entertain us.”
These guys signed up for a full season and if there is money to be made or practice to be had or improvement to be made, I expect them to be out there fulfilling their scholarship commitment. That the players themselves might not want to compete in the NIT is a reason that they should be made to compete.
All our players cant be Lawson and Hansbrough but they can fight like Wes Miller and Bobby Frasior did. That is what always makes UNC great, the mix of 5 star kids, with players that are hardnosed warriors. Again people are not bashing or railing on these kids because of their talent, its their fight. You cant go into your archrival place on ESPN and quit when the score was 12-3. They quit, and the seniors ie Ginyard and Thompson , gave up and looked like they didnt even want to come out of the locker room.
That type of effort sets the program back, they has done a lot for both these players.
Maybe John gets 30+ minutes on thursday, but 2 pts for your starting backcourt aint gonna win you ishhh…
Mike Peppers, Dudley Bradley, Dante Calabria, Pierce Landry and Reyshawn Terry were some other guys that really stepped up when they were needed.
william,
As far as I know no one here has said Roy was justified. In fact my official stance at the time was this:
1. If Roy had a concern about the guy then he should have quietly passed a message to security to have them investigate not made a big show of turning around then be seen talking to his coaches and Smith Center staff followed by the guy being marched out of the building. The visuals were horrific and he has to know better.
2. Never engage with the fans. As was proven a few days later, you engage a fan like this you end up elevating the fan to your level and as soon as the media gets it’s teeth into it, the guy you threw out gets a name, a face and a sad story to tell which is major blow back on the you.
I have no idea what Roy’s deal is this season. Maybe the stress of the season, the shoulder surgery, pain meds, who knows what else made him hypersensitive and cranky. At this point I am hoping they can play well to end the season as to build a little momentum and the man gets some rest, come back next season with an idea of how to get the train back on the tracks. New players will help but I would be surprised if he does not come back with a few changes, though it may not be things we see on the surface.
No, I didn’t mean you, THF.
You have been enlightened about this point and you even pointed out that ESPN seemed to be carrying water for Roy regarding the controversy during one game.
As far as the Roy/Deon/Marcus/Everyone bashing, for some folks it’s only about winning, and to them, saying anything else has its importance means that winning isn’t important. This is absurd, of course, but what can you do? It’s easy to point fingers, act as an armchair quarterback, and feel good about yourself.
As far as the NIT bid, if they refuse, isn’t that giving up? See, that’s my whole issue with the team. As a team, they kind of give up on themselves. Refusing an NIT bid will simply reinforce that. While I don’t think it’s going to fix anything, some more time playing in front of one another, even in a blowout, is better than quitting before the game even starts!