Adam Lucas picked up a few choice quotes from Marcus Ginyard yesterday. I am speculating that Ginyard must have received some blessing from Roy Williams to let it all hang out. This is where I miss Danny Freakin’ Green since his quotes would have been far more entertaining. Then again, if this team had Danny Freakin’ Green, they would not be 16-15 and not just because of Green’s on the court awesomeness. Anyway, I am not a big believer in coincidences so you can begin drawing up the conspiracy theories on Ginyard letting it drop that UNC got throttled by 30 in the preseason scrimmage versus Vanderbilt mainly because no one gave a crap while Roy is talking about player’s not being committed to the instruction they received. And for those who have wondered about one of those vaunted “players only meetings” to cure what ailed them? They had one then and apparently it did not matter. SMH
Two weeks after media day, Williams’s team had a closed scrimmage against an outside opponent. They were clearly outplayed, leading to a players-only meeting when the team returned to Chapel Hill.
“That scrimmage was terrible,” Marcus Ginyard said. “That was the whole season right there in that scrimmage. It was exactly the way this whole year has gone down. We were playing a good team and we weren’t ready to play when we got there. We got our butt kicked the very first time we stepped on the court together.”
–
“We were like, `There is no way we can get beat by 30 points the very first time we’re playing,’” he said. “How are we not super-pumped to be playing? As soon as we got back we had a meeting in the locker room. We said, `This is how it’s supposed to go down. We have to play better than this and more together than this.’ Even more indicative of the year, nothing really changed after that.”
On one hand, Roy says the players are not committed to doing the things they are instructed to do during games. Ginyard is saying they lacked fire, never changed attitudes following an embarrassing scrimmage loss and lacked any cohesion as a team.
With that kind of crap going on, it makes you wonder how they made it to 16-15.
![[Bloglines]](http://www.tarheelblog.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/bloglines.png)
![[del.icio.us]](http://www.tarheelblog.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/delicious.png)
![[Digg]](http://www.tarheelblog.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/digg.png)
![[Facebook]](http://www.tarheelblog.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/facebook.png)
![[MySpace]](http://www.tarheelblog.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/myspace.png)
![[Technorati]](http://www.tarheelblog.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/technorati.png)
![[Windows Live]](http://www.tarheelblog.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/windowslive.png)
![[Yahoo!]](http://www.tarheelblog.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/yahoo.png)
![[Email]](http://www.tarheelblog.com/wp-content/plugins/bookmarkify/email.png)
Enough is Enough, the season sucked, got to just let it die.
How many different ways can you say this season sucked, the Duke game was the cherry on top of the crap filled sundae of a season.
You know when the ship is sinking everyone tries to take the first boat off. It was quite evident that there were chemistry issues, but they all came in front after the CoC loss. Till then UNC played ok as a team. I guess if this is Marcus’ way of absolving himself then shame on him. Either he takes names or lets it die, but to say nonsense like this is just plain stupid, because given his performance for the greater part of the season Marcus has no room to make these kinds of complaints.
I’m not seeing how Marcus is making an effort to absolve himself with these statements. He didn’t say everyone got their butt kicked in the scrimmage but him. He never separated himself from the group. All of his statements are we statements. Looks to me that he’s putting it on himself as much as anyone else.
I agree with makeitWayne22. Too much has been said, written, discussed and speculated upon about this season. Let it go. Move on!
I agree Marcus.
Maybe a nice lullaby would help to but all this to bed…..
Maybe we’ve been spoiled recently (I mean yes, we definitely have) but I just can’t allow myself to just let it go.
I’m getting angrier and angrier at these team tweets about spring break and how happy they are about some meal theyre having or some broad theyre trying to bag, why aren’t I happy about any of those things?
I’m going on spring break and I love food and chasing after tail but I’m still pissed off everyday and I didn’t even lose those 15 games.
Why can they let it go and I can’t?
I had a friend who works in the equipment management dept. at Vanderbilt and he called me after this scrimmage to tell me how bad they played. I attributed it to a lot of freshmen being on the team, never playing together before, etc… What can I say in response now?
I guess what can the team say at this point UNC33? What I want to know is why? Why the hell did they let it go on this way? Why didn’t we see somebody on this team get in somebody else’s face and scream at them when they screwed up? Why didn’t we hear about fights breaking out in practice because somebody wasn’t getting it done? Why did the coaches and the players allow this to continue for weeks and weeks? Why didn’t some of the players take extra time in the gym and the weight room to fix these problems? Why didn’t they guilt their team mates in to spending more time in the gym and the weight room? I don’t do tweets but I’m pissed as hell to hear that crap too tarheel8486. It’s like it’s some kind of joke to some of these jerks if they are behaving like that. Well I stand even more firmly behind what I said a day or two ago if that’s the case. Aside from Henson, maybe Strickland, and maybe(unsure) Zeller and MAYBE(really unsure) Graves I don’t care who we lose off of this team. What have we lost if the whole team leaves at this point?
Their lives, just like ours, are about more than just basketball.
ugatarheel,
You need to take a step back.
Quick question, how many of you spend time outside of your job thinking about work, doing job related stuff and focusing on it when you are not there? How many? It seems you guys have forgotten these players are college kids. They have class, social lives and various other things they want to do with their spare time. No one expects them to spend every spare moment at the gym nor are they physically/mentally able to do so. Well no one except insane fans who have never been a student athlete in college, much less one in an elite program with a huge spotlight on them. Besides that, you have no idea what kind of things they have done or not done to make themselves better players. I know based on Twitter than Henson and Strickland have spent off days at the gym. Maybe others. Maybe not. I know there is only so much the coaching staff can require them to do.
And for the love of Dean Smith can we please stop the “well we should get rid of X,Y, and Z and start over with Henson and the equipment manager.” That kind of talk is stupid. I mean really stupid because you can’t just dump the whole team and start over. It is not a realistic option in current dimension in which we live so let’s stop acting like Roy can release the players then go out and pick up guys off waivers or the draft or the free agent market. Like it or not, the players on the roster are the players on the roster and next season you will be minus two current seniors, possibly one rising junior and add three very good freshman. It will just have to do and if you don’t like it then do me a favor and find somewhere else to vent. Seriously, you are on here wondering all sorts of crap, some of which is so dumb it makes my head hurt. Players fighting each other? Really?
TarHeel8486 for all us working class folk, please go on SB and have a great college time, if not for your sake, for the sake of the people on this blog that cant go and look at tons of college girls, and drink our selves retarded… ahh college
^^^^^Marcus
Agreed, but you know what my boss says when I come in to work? Leave your personal life at home dude because there is no place for it here. You know what else? I’m expected to stay until the job is done and to work extra if I fall behind, sometimes even without pay. And he expects me to show initiative to get the things done that need to be done without him having to tell me 6 different times. Finally if I mess up then I’m expected to fix the problem I made.
The same things apply to this team. This is their job. It’s their unpaid internship and all of the same things that all of us have to deal with in our job apply to them plus a lot more. If being a Carolina fan means that I still cheer for them in a season like this, then the least I can expect from them is a 100% effort to do the best they can. If they had left it all out there on this court this year I would be much more understanding of this season. But now I find out from them and their coach that they didn’t and that just burns my butt!
THF,
Both I and my girlfriend spend plenty of our off time working on things related to our job. We bring work home. We talk about issues at work. We go and help out on our days off when needed, and we stay late when it is required. Most of our coworkers do the same. Most places of employment in this economy expect those things of all their employees because quite frankly they know that for every person they have to let go their are 10 more people desperate for a job and a chance to earn a living.
I know realistically that we can’t get rid of the whole team. They can’t even do that in the pros with free agents and waivers, and the draft so I know it’s not going to happen here. That doesn’t change my conviction that if we have a Clifford Rozier on this team he needs to go. It doesn’t change my opinion that if their is a JR Reid here then we don’t need him. Lack of effort is inexcusable behavior on the part of some of the most fortunate kids in the country and should not be tolerated by the coaches or the fans.
These comments are similar to closing the barn door after the horse has already left the stall. 20/20 hindsight is great, but still doesn’t answer the question why the senior leaders didn’t do more. If the effort and intensity wasn’t there and players basically didn’t care then why weren’t the seniors getting in those players faces or going to the coach and saying “this guy is not bringing the right effort and intensity to play at this level and let’s do something before he ruins my senior year.” The problem I have with all of this is that there is a whole bunch of revisiting when everyone first saw a problem or how the problem carried over throughout the season, but nothing about what should have been done differently. Don’t see the point of saying “here is where I should have known we were going to suck and you know we talked about it, and nothing changed”, unless you are going to convey what you should have done differently.
If during my senior season someone is not bringing the effort and focus every day to help my last season be as successful as possible then that player has a price to pay one way or the other and I’m going to collect, so they’ll either bring it or wish they did once we leave the basketball court. If a meeting in a locker room didn’t fix the problem, I would make sure to find other methods that did fix and motivated the problems, unless you are also part of the problem which might be the case here. The reason this never got fixed might be because the seniors and upperclassmen were just as much subject to the lack of effort and focus as the younger guys which made it more of the norm vs. the exception in this team’s make up.
What I find amazing and still can’t comprehend is that as bad as this team is now and evidently was in the preseason, it was much better in November and early December when it beat OSU and MSU, and played competitively with Texas and Kentucky. If all games were like Syracuse then I could buy the “it was there from the beginning” line. But somehow they improved dramatically from the Vandy debacle to focus and play well early in the season (except for Syracuse) then revert to a lack of focus and poor play once the calendar turned to 2010. Something happened either over Christmas or during the trip the Charleston that took this team and its chemistry into a totally different direction than the early part of the season.
As for the early signs, I remember william voicing major concerns after the Syracuse game and all of us (including myself) blasting him and saying that the performance was an outlier due to youth and would be corrected in the coming months. It is funny how raw basketball talent can be strangled by a lack of chemistry, effort, and focus when you try to mold it into a functional team.
The greatness of the NCAA Tournament has been built on lesser talented but cohesive teams knocking off a team three NBA lottery picks and a HOF coach. Togetherness and execution can carry you a long way. If somehow this team managed to click the pieces together it would be fun to watch. I just don’t think anyone actually believes it is possible.
You can’t teach youth about work ethic it is something learned through experience.
and spare me the whole, they need to be pissed all the time, their kids in college, and Spring Break is a huge part. Yes the season sucked, but do the players need to walk around till next oct. looking pissed and missing out on their college experience.
If I was 18 and playing for UNC, the amount of women trying to get at me, would make it hard for me to stay upset for to long.
scl11, thank you for that post. I don’t always agree with what you say but we are in perfect accord on this topic.
makeitWayne you are absolutely right. I’ve seen this kind of behavior in 18 yr old kids hired at my job to move freight. Let me put it this way, I have lost count of the times I have wanted to snatch a cell phone out of some punk kids hand and smash it to bit with a hammer. Obviously these kids are not being brought up the same way we were when I was younger. I guess it starts at home and then the High School coaches are too afraid to make them fix the problem, and then the college coaches are too afraid to fix the problem, and then we end up with so many of the people we see playing in the pros that just turn my stomach.
Seems like either a personality issue (no motivation, ambition, pride, etc.) or a mental issue (not intelligent enough to absorb, or remember, what their coach is telling them to do). The question is, can you even fix a problem like that? Personalities don’t change very easily and, in terms of intelligence – it is what it is.
Is this the type of problem that forces to you just accept that certain players aren’t going to be able to contribute much, and you have to rely on multiple recruiting classes to make up for that?
uga, I’m just glad I met the “constructive criticism” standard and didn’t cross over to “bashing”
As an observation on Marcus’ comment let me also add that leadership, or the lack thereof has been a key issue for this team. The team captains were pre-ordained by the coaches, media etc. Marcus was going to take the mantle of David Noel and Deon was going to be the team leader up front. So if they failed to show up who takes them on? Who among the freshmen and sophomores has the guts to criticize the teacher’s pets? That was the fundamental flaw with this team. The leaders did not lead by example, they failed to make tough plays on the defensive end when it mattered.
Whenever I think of leading by example I remember last season. UNC began the ACC season with back to back losses. In fact the WFU loss was so bad that after the game some players were crying and blaming each other in the locker room (how do I know this? from Roy Williams’ book). Then they played Miami and again started the game with a lackadaisical effort, but two plays in that game changed the outlook for the whole season. What were they? Back to back running blocks by Danny Green. In fact the second block was so physical in nature it could have injured Danny. But that set the tone for the season…no free lunches. We have not seen the seniors step up in that way, instead we had wide open perimeter shots and free access to easy layups conceded by both our seniors. It’s easy to say that the team did not listen to the coach but there is no substitute for effort, and when the team captains are coasting along, the rest of the team are likely to follow suit.
I am still mystified that Henson couldn’t play wing yet somehow Jason Capel played guard in 1998.
scl11
LOL yeah I guess I sound like a basher now too. It wasn’t my intent but I just have to sit back and say WTF?!? at this point.
There is a difference between a job and a career/profession. The top players are facing a career path that can make them millions. Some are immature and blow their chances while others ala TH grab it by the throat. You usually don’t take a “job” home with you unless it is to bitch about the day, Professions are full time. Why I’m willing to bet that these guys play a pick-up game or two when not practicing or playing for the Heels and I bet the top players’ lives pretty much revolve around basketball. It boils down to how serious are the about their careers. There’s a big difference between the seriousness an 18 year old exhibits or should exhibit working a split shift at Applebee’s and these guys.
cb74 IF it’s true that Marcus and Deon were part of the problem then I think we have to hold the coaching staff responsible for their behavior. That Roy chose not to cut their PT despite a lack of results on the court can’t be categorized as anything but a huge mistake.
As far as players I think Will Graves could have stepped in to that roll even with Marcus and Deon. Maybe he felt like he couldn’t after being thrown off the team. But he could have taken the attitude that, “hey guys I haven’t worked my tail off to get back here to let you two slack off and set a poor example!”
Please understand that this is purely hypothetical, because I don’t know what has happened in practice or in the dorms or locker rooms. Clearly something like this either needed to happen or did happen and had no effect this year though. Let’s hope it doesn’t bleed in to next year as well.
uga, in anything that requires team effort few things always prove problematic, seniority of undeserving candidates, favoritism, and ego. The first two are definitely applicable to Deon and Marcus, as far as ego goes all players have ego, it is only natural, but who’s deserving and who’s not is where you make and break a team. But until this season is over we will never know.
Agreed cb74 it never ceases to amaze me how upper management can fail to distinguish between a brown noser and a person with talent or work ethic. Maybe the same thing happens to coaches.
I do think there is a huge difference between saying “gee, I hope player X leaves UNC,” and saying that it might be in both UNC’s interest and certain players’ interest if they part ways. That is what SI seemed to imply happened with Cliff Rozier.
Nevertheless, we made a commitment to these guys that as long as they study and work hard, if they are doing both things, that they could be on our team.
I don’t think, however, that means that people are wrong to wonder whether certain recruits were a good fit or not, or whether certain players might have a more successful career somewhere else. If they stay, we root for them, but it is clear that Williams himself asked several players back in 2003 if they wanted him to help them arrange transfers and I believe they all turned him down.
No, this isn’t poker, and while the discard aspect might help in terms of analyzing talent, it doesn’t mean that I won’t be rooting just as hard for Twin X or Twin Y to have great years every season for UNC, even though I think they might have been more successful elsewhere. I do remember THF, himself, saying that a transfer might indeed help relieve some recruiting pressures that UNC currently has.
Here is something else that is interesting. UNC and Marshall are essentially tied in the Pomeroy rankings. We beat them by 35 earlier in the year, so Marshall must have really improved.
makeitwayne,
I’ll have a drink for ya, my college career is ending in a matter of months so I need this, probably not more than you do. But you know what I’m saying right? I understand were nerdy and compulsive fans and follow these 18-22 year old closer than our own children but I just see a lack of accountability. I cant totally and honestly say “I’d do this if I was our starting PG” but I think I’d tone down other stuff besides hoops because along with the countless priviledges of being a D-1 athlete, they need to realize that anyone would kill for that chance and I want them to pretend its ruining their life. Useless banter, hurry up Harrison.
“Here is something else that is interesting. UNC and Marshall are essentially tied in the Pomeroy rankings. We beat them by 35 either in the year, so Marshall must have really improved.”
That is why I think something happened either during Christmas Break or on the way to Charleston, SC. Even with injuries, how does this group drop so fast to where now they look like a bunch of AAU kids that met in the parking lot before the game.
“What I find amazing and still can’t comprehend is that as bad as this team is now and evidently was in the preseason, it was much better in November and early December when it beat OSU and MSU, and played competitively with Texas and Kentucky”
Excellent posts from the vast majority here on THFblog. SC11 makes a great observation. I remember Dexter skipping off the court after he made a three to end the 1st half with MSU. I also remember the team looked great in the home win over Va Tech. So, I too can’t comprehend Marcus’ statement. Even with Syracuse, the Heels looked like at least a top 20 team in the 1st half.
I still would like to thing that one of the big reasons the team never really came around was the fact many of them were missing games due to injury (which to me is more than just being banged up). I’m still hoping for an incredible miracle this weekend.
In terms of transferring, if the coaches know a guy is trying as hard as he can, but isn’t great results because his talent just didn’t pan out, then I think its bad form to ask him to transfer. He’s working hard. Thats all you should reasonably demand in return for an athletic scholarship.
However, if a guy isn’t working hard and is loafing and is not doing the things that the coaches are telling him to do, then he is not meeting his end of the scholarship obligation and there is nothing at all wrong with telling him to go somewhere else.
HP, Nothing wrong with hope, but you can hope in one hand and sh&t in the other, let me know which one fills up first.
This team quit too many times this year that one could even realistically hope that this group could string together 4 competent basketball performances.
@ Clemson QUIT
Wake Forest QUIT
Virginia QUIT
@ GA Tech QUIT
FSU QUIT
@ Duke QUIT
SI has released its all-glue team. No Tar Heels made that team either, he said with lips dripping of irony.
^not true considering that glue can be made from the dead horse that is North Carolina Basketball 2009/10…….
I think there are a lot of things going on here. One of you asked why this season bothered you so much. Others have wondered why people can’t stop talking about this team or its leader.
First of all, Roy is an interesting personality. I think we all agree on that.
Second, many of us overgrown boys are experiencing a type of hero disappointment/disillusionment. I had, at times, been close to crowning Coach Williams as the greatest basketball coach our university has ever had. The loss to Kansas made me question that. Without rehashing the whole thing, somehow Smith was able to both beat and lose to his alma mater in the Final Four, without making himself much more than a footnote in the story. Williams’ Final Four weekend from 2008 is pretty much a total wash-out for UNC fans.
This year, unfortunately, may clinch Smith’s position at the top at UNC. Being second to Smith is obviously not anything to be ashamed about, but I just think that the nature of this season basically means that Roy now has to do something ultra-big to surpass his mentor, like either win back to back titles or at least walk away with four national titles. It is not impossible, but that is kind of what I think is now necessary.
That basically goes for surpassing K and Knight, as well, something we UNC fans were hoping to see Roy do.
Yes, Smith only won 2 titles, but he re-built the program and also spent the first 30% of his career during the UCLA/Undefeated/1 loss era, which ended in 1976.
From 1967 through 1976, either UCLA, or a team, NC State, with only one defeat (to UCLA), or undefeated Indiana, won the national title.
Smith essentially kicked off the new era by almost winning a title in 1977 with a team that had many losses, as did winner Marquette. At this point, it is fair to start grading Smith with respect to winning national titles and he did as well as anyone except K or Knight, winning 2 titles in 21 years and just missing in 1977.
He also enjoyed this success without much variability in results. I know eras differ, but Smith was also one of the first coaches to ever lose a player to the pro’s, losing future Hall of Famer, Bob McAdoo, way back in 1971, as well as pretty much losing a sure title in 1983, and perhaps a probable title or title game against GU in 1985.
It is always exciting to see coaches and athletes reach new heights, especially coaches, as it means your team is winning. Just as many former fans became disappointed/disillusioned with George Foreman after he lost to Ali. I am sure many of us are disappointed that Roy didn’t quite reach the heights we might have seen him reach.
But, I think I made clear previously, that he deserves a mulligan. Everyone agrees on that, I believe. Part of why many of us analyze this to death is because we are all very interested in coaching, both as an art and a science. We are interested in knowing what makes a coach great and what makes a great coach. You see books and works on management for CEO’s but there is no real consensus, I believe, either among coaches or businessmen. There are a variety of styles and approaches which can be successful.
Most confounding though, is what happened here. How can an esteemed coaching talent suffer through a year like this? Did he in fact do the same thing he has done for 20 years, or is he simply overlooking some subtle changes in his practices or style?
I didn’t follow Kansas closely enough to know whether Roy always made a practice of playing lesser talented guys who show intelligence or heart or whatever. Did that start with Bobby Frasor and continue this year, or is that something new, or is it really just something random? I have noticed more and more many of Williams’ mannerisms in dealing with the media, and basically, I think they are the sorts of things that irk when a team is going through a rough patch. They are also jarring after years and years of Smith and Guthridge.
Does calling guys out in public work? It might, with the right group of guys. With the wrong group of guys, it might also be disastrous. Smith never did it, so we can’t compare, but the practice might indeed lead to more erratic results, both in terms of wins during good years and losses during bad years.
I do think that when you are a coach at Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, etc., sometimes you can get away with treating major talents in a way that they would never deign to be treated at most other schools. I am not sure many other schools would have Zeller riding the bench this year to teach him a lesson about defense.
I am not sure Vince Carter or Jerry Stackhouse do major pine time their freshment seasons anywhere else in the country. Nevertheless, if you push that stuff too far, it can come back to bite you. If you bench major talents for being too effusive after a nice dunk, they might decide to go be effusive somewhere else in the future.
The season is a disappointment and also almost over. Acceptance is on its way. No one to my knowledge has forgotten last season; no one should forget last Saturday, either. What the future will hold is not easy to say. Many people seem to think the climb to a national title will be simple, forgetting how K’s parade of Final Four appearances has been on hiatus for several years, or how Rick Pitino never garnered that second title after things looked so easy for him there for a while. Florida has gone back to competence, rather than top ten excellence, as has Ohio State, apparently.
We also shouldn’t forget, however, how woeful things looked for Kentucky, and frankly, for Duke, last season. Georgetown, like Kentucky, was in the NIT last year and has made a decent recovery, probably similar to what UNC might expect this year.
UConn might be the best example, however, if you want to find a program trending in a similar manner to UNC. They also seem to have big bursts of success, followed by seasons of mediocrity after players depart. That may be a better pattern to follow/expect for UNC, if the goal is actually winning titles, rather than just being in the top ten every year, as Duke has been since 2001. Duke has been stable, partially because since Luol Deng, they haven’t lost a major talent to the pro’s, because they haven’t had any major talents.
It is plausible that this UConn pattern is a successful pattern and what Williams had in mind for this season. But it might have been a good idea to lower expectations, if that is the case, and Williams refused to ever do that this season. He had the perfect chance to do so after the Syracuse game and chose instead to complement them. Obviously, Syracuse was much better than expected and deserved to be complimented, but Roy might have basically said that this is the kind of play that UNC people should expect this year, what you saw in the second half against Syracuse.
I don’t think he wanted to do that because of what happened in 2006. It would have been much better if he had simply said, “we stink this year, and that is pretty much what I expected and it is what you fans should expect. I ask for your patience because we lost some great guys to the NBA and I do have a plan for the future, but the future is definitely not now.”
I likewise agree with scl11′s observation. In the fall, we beat MSU and OSU, both of whom are quality teams. We staged a strong comeback against Kentucky, which could win the NC. But our team was not the same after late December. Something happened then. At some point we’ll find out what it was.
It might not have been all that dramatic (e.g., a locker room fight). It could more easily have been that players who had been coping with conflicts (with other players or with Roy) just ran out of patience or stamina, or weren’t getting the support an 18 year-old needs. I don’t know.
This team had talent. Every basketball prognosticater in the country cannot have been so completely wrong. We did not have all the talent we needed — not at PG, or for outside shooting, or for rebounding. But up until late December, our record and our talent were in sync. We had not lost to a single team to which we were, talent-wise, superior.
That cannot be said after the New Year.
And it’s not just that we started ACC play in the New Year. We lost to any number of ACC teams that are not even arguably as good as MSU or OSU. Why?
When a team has talent, based not on prognostication appraisals but on its actual performance over two months (Novermber and December), and then falls apart, the coach has to take the blame. I’m sorry, but, other than injuries (and admittedly we had some) there is no other plausible explanation.
The coach may not (indeed he probably was not) the source of the problem. But it is central to his job to diagnose the problem and figure out how to fix it. Neither the diagnosis nor the fix is likely to be easy. But AT THIS LEVEL, that’s what is expected, and also what’s necessary for success. Roy did not get it done. Roy has brought us great success and we shouldn’t forget it; few fan bases have had as much to celebrate as we have. But he didn’t get it done this year. Indeed, the evidence is overwhelming that this team went retrograde for the most important two months of the season. Players who had been adequate or better turned inadequate and at times embarrassing. When it happens to a single player, that’s his fault. When it happens to a whole team full of players, it’s time to look at the coach.
At the end of last season, we lost our greatest player ever and one of our best point guards ever, plus two other amazing contributors. This season was going to be a relative disappointment, and there is nothing Roy could have done about that. But 16 wins from a team stocked with high school All America’s is a sorry performance, there’s just no other honest way to put it.
ugatarheel is right on the money. Being a professional means that you’re at work all the time. I’m not talking about the kids on the team (although the privileged status of being a North Carolina varsity basketball player DOES, in my view, justifiably impose added obligations on them as well). I’m talking about Roy. Saying that the team doesn’t listen and doesn’t obey may well be true. Yet it still obscures the real issue, which is that it’s the head coach’s job TO GET THEM TO LISTEN AND OBEY. Roy just didn’t.
scl11…….”^not true considering that glue can be made from the dead horse that is North Carolina Basketball 2009/10…….”
So that is what the guy was doing in THFs’ dead horse picture.
Everyone who is still rolling in the mud needs a vacation from this. That’s not the team’s responsibility or fault, it’s our own. I, for one, am going to take a break. There’s no point in posting the same things ad nauseum on the board. At some point, me posting this stuff in the echo chamber probably means I should be repeating it to a psychologist and not here. But really, I’m not that bad off, and I don’t really think others here are either.
We have to be careful of not being guilty of the same sins we would chastise the team for doing — quitting, poor attitude, pointing fingers, doing the same thing over and over like something will change. Gotta break the cycle.
The season being over will mercifully end my pain in reading most of the posts on this site lately, especially yesterday and today. You guys need to get a life!
Sometimes I really wonder why I come here, but I know it’s for THF, Doc, and C Michael who put together good topics, help compile good stats, and try and help keep everything in perspective. (And, ok, all the other sites are even crazier.) There are some others here who do a pretty good job as well.
I certainly know I have the option of staying away, but I’m a basketball junkie, and a huge Tar Heel fan. I have such an incredibly hard time, though, understanding how so many of you feel such anger toward these teenagers and young men, or at least it seems that way. I only hope that some of you aren’t as unmercifully critical and demanding with your own children.
This post about this year’s UNC team is why I make impacting a player’s competitive character the #1 goal for the youth teams I coach. I want them to learn to play hard and have a passion for the sport they play and their teammates. Somewhere & somehow, Roy Williams and his staff made some critical recruiting mistakes. I know Coach Williams. I’ve sat by him at college and high school games. Respect him as a coach and a man. One thing I know, next year’s season won’t be a repeat of this year’s. Only advice I can give Coach Williams is this:”You don’t teach toughness,you recruit it.” I respect Carolina basketball so much that I use Dean Smith’s mission statement for all the teams that I coach: “Play Hard, Play Smart, Play Together.” Coaches, hold players accountable at a young age. Bench your best player (Bench is the best teacher) if they are not giving the effort that you expect. Let them know there is no excuse for playing hard, and that they should always strive to become the best they are capable of becoming.
With so many players leaving early for the NBA alot can change from season to season in the new college landscape. Just think of the impacts to Duke if either Smith or Singler or both decide to leave early for the NBA? Kentucky will be starting basically from scratch next season as will Kansas. It will be interesting to see if Kentucky (without Patterson, Wall, and Cousins) and Kansas (without Collins, Aldrige, and Henry) struggle next season and also what Duke looks like if both Singler and Smith are not around next season. Those programs along with UNC and UCLA are expected to be good not matter how many players return vs. leave early for the NBA. Let’s see if UNC and UCLA are the exception or the norm.
I think that Roy builds his recruiting for a 3 year period that should peak in the 3rd year for the ultimate in success (national titles), and he tries to mix the number of star players with role players to stabilize in case of major overhauls.
Year 1 (after all the departures, young team) –> struggle early win 20 games and go to NCAAT
Year 2 (1st wave of new talent) –> talent jump YTY and contend for ACC and NCAA Titles
Year 3 (2nd wave of talent & experienced talent from year 1 & 2) –> expected to win ACC and National titles
And I just think with everyone returning last season we got to experience year 3 two years in a row. Really last year was suppose to be the struggle and this year was suppose to be year 2, but it just appears the struggle just got delayed a year and turned into a disaster.
On the other hand, I think someone like K builds for stability in the current environment and looks to sprinkle in one really great player or hopes one of the good players actually develops into a great player. Duke does not have any great players this year, but they do have 3 good ones that when they are clicking and the other role players do their jobs they can be a tough out, but if Duke goes up against a team like Kentucky or Kansas that has great players then they have no shot to win if both are playing at a high level.
^I think we’re looking at a 3-year cycle with this team also, depending on what we think its ceiling is in 2011-2012. The player I’m most concerned about, as a setback to that plan, is John Henson.
scl11 –
We still have specific needs for next year that I don’t see being filled. Our PG play is inadequate to take us very far up the road to success, and one has to wonder where the rebounding is coming from. Over the last few games, Ginyard (of all people) was our best rebounder, and he graduates. A number of us have noted that we need a toughguy/wide-body, but we don’t have that coming in either.
Simply based on the long-observed statistical phenomenon of regression toward the mean, we are likely to more nearly approach our mean performance of the last few years, but statistics don’t get rebounds and they don’t do much dribble penetration either. Maybe Marshall and Bullock will be stars from the getgo, but it’s a mistake to count on star performances from freshmen.
UConn lost 14 games in 2007 and has lost 14 so far this year, so that is a three year cycle.
I think everyone would agree that it is not simply the record, however. Yes, UConn might have had similar won/loss records, in 2007 and 2010 to ours this year, but they lost a lot of close games. To me, what is more concerning is the fact that we have simply gotten blitzed several times this year, in a manner that I can never remember happening in Carolina basketball, except possibly in 2002-2003.
We aren’t just losing, the way that young teams often do. We got annihilated by UVa and FSU on our home floor. We got completely taken apart by Clemson and Duke and GIT on their floors, to the point that there was no chance of winning these games after halftime. That is where it becomes highly probable that something much more pernicious than youth or injuries is at play. Those types of defeat seem to indicate some time of severe dissension on the squad.
Let’s look at Roy’s recruiting classes both past and future to Chapel Hill:
2004 –> Williams/Smith (Stars), Curry (potential star): only 1 made it to campus and only stayed one season, which drove alot of the pressure on the 2005 class to perform well early and to be a larger class than anticipated, which impacts scholarship availability for future classes.
2005 –> Hansbrough (Star), Green (Potential Star), Frasor/Ginyard/Copeland: all stayed for 4 years which is very rare in this era especially when one is a star, but tying up scholarships with 3 role players was probably not the goal, but a necessity with zero players from the 2004 class lasting past one season.
2006 –> Lawson/Ellington/Wright (Stars), Thompson/Stepheson/Graves (role players): 3 were stars right away with 2 being major pieces of a championship team, only 2 of the role players made it all 4 years and again a lot of scholarships tied up in role players do to the exodus of the 2004 class.
2007 –> None, because of scholarship availability due to 2 large classes back to back this put a lot of pressure on the 2008 & 2009 classes to be really good unless Lawson and Ellington were going to stay 4 years, which no one expected to happen.
2008 –> Davis/Zeller (Potential Stars), DrewII (role player), Watts (bench player): very good class with one of the potential stars being a key piece to a national championship season, but in hindsight a star or potential star needed to come from the guard position (just weren’t any available) and the scholarship to Watts (as insurance if players left) was a mistake.
2009 –> Henson (Star), Strickland (Potential star), McDonald/Wears (role players): 3 years in a row of zero major stars in the backcourt was a mistake that again with hindsight having Wall for one season might have bridged. Plus probably didn’t need 2 6’9″ role players in the post especially with all the needs for shooting and ball handling.
2010 –> Bullock/Barnes (Stars), Marshall (Potential star): perimeter help on the way (we hope) and hopefully only need a small learning curve before becoming major impacts. But with the development problems with the current freshmen and the potential for Davis to leave, instead of this class filling gaps for a title run it most likely will be the key pieces to the rebuilding of the Carolina program (Mccants, May, and Felton class vs. Marvin Williams or Ed Davis type classes)
2011 –> McAdoo (star), Hairston (potential star): again at this point this currently looks like a perfect class to fill needs for a run at a title if players stay more than one year, but I still think another star or potential star at the point guard position is required unless Marshall shows up as Jason Kidd and is guaranteed to stay for 4 years.
“We still have specific needs for next year that I don’t see being filled.”
That’s why I think Carolina is 2 recruiting classes away from contending for a title again. Next year will be about challenging or winning the ACC (depends on the strength of the ACC, which one) and playing in NCAAT (or basically what we expected from this season)
**** Update
I still think next year’s success (NCAAT team or NCAA contender) hinges mainly on how much LDII improves and/or how good Marshall is in season one, there will be plenty of talented pieces in their natural positions that fit the Roy Williams system which was totally missing this season, but agree the physical presence in the post is still missing, which is the gap McAdoo fills in 2011.
what happened to UNC is simply that team figured out offensively limited the Heel were. Teams started packing in the lanes, and also all of the ACC teams seemed to have at least one competant big man.
william makes a great point about Smith and the UCLA era, there’s no comparison today or before then in college basketball.
Also UCONN has had trouble but Calhoun, as angry as he might get, has been silent the last few weeks. If you are a fan of sitting players that you aren’t happy with, take a look at who starts the Big East tournament for UCONN. I think it’s been made clear who will start and who will get minutes. This is an unfair comparison to Roy and I prefer Roy but if you want some gasoline there are a few gallons in this material for you.
As to pulling a rabbit out of the hat for UNC, I agree the horse is dead and we are just flailing about on this topic but what type of response did you expect after the last few comment festivals. This is horrific information and people are going to react, fans, opponents and the media.
Once you have players going public with this type of information you don’t have a chance. It’s over, the flag is waving and we are done. You can pull it together next year but not by the time the ACC tournament starts.
I do long for the silence of the program. Some of these taboos were broken with Roy’s book and I wonder what Dean thinks of that information being released.
Still, Roy is a great coach and he’ll be back, these kids have been winners, have talent and they can be taught. It’s not impossible, if that guy with the bulldog that has a 24 foot vertical leap can do it, so can Roy. A friend of mine, a Wake fan – coincidence william(?), stated following the announcement of Roy’s acceptance of the UNC job – “Well that sucks, Carolina might as well have weapons of mass destruction.”
william wrote:
“Here is something else that is interesting. UNC and Marshall are essentially tied in the Pomeroy rankings. We beat them by 35 either in the year, so Marshall must have really improved.”
———-
scl11 wrote:
“That is why I think something happened either during Christmas Break or on the way to Charleston, SC. Even with injuries, how does this group drop so fast to where now they look like a bunch of AAU kids that met in the parking lot before the game.”
———————-
This team was never ranked very high in the Pomeroy ratings. Even with a record of 11-3 with quality wins over Ohio State and Michigan State, Pomeroy had UNC no higher than 15th.
Throw in multiple injuries, bad attitudes, emotional fatigue, general karmic payback, and whatever else the team has dealt with… and it’s no surprise UNC is now neck and neck with in the ratings with a team it beat by 35 points (Marshall) earlier in the season. Everyone else got better; UNC did not.
However, the truth remains, this team was not very good to begin with. People who saw the Vanderbilt scrimmage in October said, back then, that this team would struggle to reach the 2nd round of NCAA tournament. These folks said they expected UNC would finish with a record similar to the teams in 1990 and 2000(something like 19-12 or 21-13). Of course, prognostications were based on a healthy roster (and a healthy coach). After the multitude of injuries we suffered, this team went from fundamentally bad to downright awful.
They played one good game this year (vs Michigan State). However, that MSU game is no more representative of the 2010 Tar Heels than the Kansas game is of the 2008 team. Both were anomalies. Still, for a brief 72 hour period in the aftermath of that Michigan State win (before the Kentucky game), it was hard not to wonder “maybe this team isn’t really that bad..” But after Kentucky, no one should have had those allusions again. Without Wall sitting most of the second half, Kentucky would’ve won that game by the customary double digits we’ve come to expect (like Syracuse, Texas, Clemson, Wake, Virginia, Maryland, Duke, Georgia Tech, Florida State, and Duke again)
This team’s final record will not be as bad as the 2002 team’s 8-20, but it will still go down as one of the worst (and least decorated) teams in 100 years of Carolina basketball. Whether you compare the final records, team stats, individual player performance, level of competition, only the 2002 team comes close to this team’s resume. It is what it is. Not passing judgment; just pointing out what I believe is the truth.
“2011 –> McAdoo (star), Hairston (potential star): again at this point this currently looks like a perfect class to fill needs for a run at a title if players stay more than one year, but I still think another star or potential star at the point guard position is required unless Marshall shows up as Jason Kidd and is guaranteed to stay for 4 years.”
We’ll have a lot better idea about future title hopes after next year, and the 2011 class does look good. Henson coming back will be key, considering Barnes is not a likely one-and-done.
When did you mean another star at the PG position would be required ? It would have to be for 2013 wouldn’t it, unless someone leaves early?
William,
You are going to have back me up on this because I know you know it as well. Carolina HAS ALWAYS with a few exceptions here or there deferred to upperclassmen in the program. Some Freshmen have started in the program, but when they did they were either super talents or by necessity…Dean and Roy have always preferred to have upperclassmen starting.
We all, at some point or the other, have attacked both Marcus Ginyard and Deon Thompson for their play this season. But, Ginyard was asked, I feel, to assume a responsibility for this club that he was not suited for, and that was being a scorer. He is what he is, but being a scorer isn’t what he is. He is a good defender, decent passer, and when their is other quality players on the floor, he is a good 4th option of your offense, hitting an medium range jumper or layup here or there when the defense is focused on the other talented players.
Thompson has always been a good second banana. He was able to benefit from the defense being focused on Tyler, Lawson, Ellington and Green and did good mop up work. But, he needed and needs another aggressive big man in the post to help hide his limitations.
We thought, and most prognosticators and apparently a lot of NBA Draft experts, thought that Ed Davis would assume this role this year. But, an aggressive Ed Davis never showed up. Davis basically played the same way he did in 2008-09, only with more minutes.
My question to those who think Ginyard or Thompson got too many minutes is this, who showed anything consistently to get either player off of the court??? Strickland basically hasn’t showed to play since the first N.C. State game. McDonald got hurt. And by process of injury, there was NO suitable replacement for Thompson, so we were stuck with what we were stuck with…
As for the bad prognostications, those happened because four players didn’t do what many assumed they would or could do. Marcus Ginyard being a senior leader and providing some offense, Deon Thompson improving his game, but more importantly, was Ed Davis living up to his billing as a Top 5 NBA prospect and John Henson living up to his billing as a Top 5 recruit. Henson never showed more than glimpses, never found his outside shot, and only shined when playing a role his body is not really suited for at this point, power forward.
NO GUARDS ever came to play the entire season and in this day and age, you cannot win consistently in college basketball without good guard play. Our guards never could hit outside shots consistently and turned the ball over WAY TOO MUCH… If Larry Drew II plays like Bobby Frasor did at the point in 2006, which a lot of us thought was realistic, Carolina is more than likely preparing for a NCAA Tournament bid instead of NIT… But, unfortunately, that didn’t happen either.
So, in summary, Ha Ha Ha, players not living or playing up to expectations and injuries are what doomed this team, plus once the losing started, a loss of focus and toughness…
I also think if Ginyard would’ve provided this team with the same senior leadership that David Noel provided the 2006 team, of which Ginyard was a part, things could’ve been different as well.
I know it is a would’ve, could’ve, should’ve, proposition, but a medical red-shirt year for Bobby Frasor would have helped matters considerably as well, especially from a leadership standpoint…
UConn shellacked by a St Johns team that isnt making the NCAAT either.
its like looking in a mirror.
do they not know their plays either?
***
five YEARS without a Big East tournament win. incredible.
UConn ended up paralleling UNC, each with a couple of decent wins, but finishing up with exhausted coaches and apparent dissension.
In terms of playing decisions, I agree that Strickland was finally given a chance to take a position at the point where Ginyard bottomed out, but for whatever reason, Strickland was unable to do so. Ginyard has sort of reverted to where he was at the beginning of the year, but regardless, even if he hadn’t taken the plunge into sheer awfulness on offense, no team was ever going to win much with Ginyard as a starting guard, without essentially playing another smaller guy to take up the slack.
When you do that, you have Graves, Drew and Ginyard all in the line-up, who are marginal talents, not only just for UNC, but for the ACC in general. Maybe if you had those three and two All Americans in the frontcourt, you might win something, but I doubt it. The three of them combined for 6 points in heavy minutes against Duke. Ginyard can’t shoot at all, and Drew and Graves can shoot but they are highly erratic.
UNC started Dudley Bradley, who was a defensive star, back in the late 70′s, and he couldn’t shoot either, but Bradley had game changing defensive skills and real athleticism. I think he played a few years with the Bucks. After that, I guess we could consider John Kuester, Brad Hoffman and Mike Peppers, as marginal talents who started for Dean their senior years, but even all of these guys had their moments, with Kuester winning the ACC Tourney MVP one year, and Hoffman and Peppers both hitting huge shots against Wake Forest to win big tourney games.
But Bradley, Kuester, Hoffman and Peppers really didn’t start just because they were seniors. Their teams simply were not very deep. I am also trying to remember another similar guy from the 1983 team, who was white and a decent outside shooter, but not a great talent. There was also Tom Zalagaris, so we had a slew of these similar type players from about 1975-1983.
One difference seems clear though. Dean had point guards who were marginal shooters, but with the exception of Dudley Bradley, most of his swingmen and shooting guards were excellent outside shots and free throw shooters. Either Ginyard or Jackie Manuel must take the record for the absolute worst offensive guards in the modern history of UNC basketball. I know Roy didn’t recruit Manuel, but it seems like he would have if he had had the chance.
It is hard for me, honestly, to remember cases where Dean buried talent to allow upper classmen to start. I think anything close went to the upper classman, yes, but it just didn’t come up that much except for maybe 1994. I remember when I was there, we thought maybe Dean was being a bit unfair to Curtis Hunter, but then he got his chance due to an injury and unlike in the case of Henson, it was clear immediately why Hunter had not been starting.
What Dean would do, usually, is let the upper classman start the first ten or 13 games, and then make the switch at that point. This is what happened with Perkins and Brust, I believe, and probably also J.R. Reid in 1987. I can’t remember too many other occasions, because Smith seemed to have things figured out rightly pretty much from the get-go.
I think, talking about coaching disappointments, that is another thing that is disappointing about Coach Williams, compared to Coach Smith. We seem to have these issues come up every year, to the point that I wonder whether Williams does it on purpose, perhaps to try to inspire guys to work harder. We had Marvin Williams on the bench. We had Danny Green on the bench. We had Ed Davis on the bench. All of these guys seemed to be sitting behind clearly inferior players, while at the same time, during several years, Williams seemed to be giving other subs more playing time than they deserved.
I don’t remember these kinds of issues continually arising under Smith.
Looking forward, Williams did cut back Wes Miller’s minutes as a senior, particularly since Miller could not duplicate his dream year of the season before. I am not sure he had much choice about starting Jackie Manuel. I think that was political, as were probably a lot of Melvin Scott’s minutes.
Williams did an amazing job holding the 2005 and 2007 teams together, given the large collection of talent and interests on both squads. Perhaps we got spoiled. Most coaches are not going to be able to keep that many guys happy. Bill Self has had huge numbers of transfers at KU, as has K at Duke. We have avoided most of that until now. But obviously, there are going to have to be either some very highly recruited guys sitting on the bench or something is going to have to change.
William,
I will defend Jackie Manuel though. He was, admittedly, a terrible shooter. But he WAS the defensive stopper on that 2005 team and he changed his game and quit shooting, and was able to provide, I think, solid play…
Dean Smith did play Derrick Phelps over Jeff McInnis, and Brian Reese and Kevin Salvadori over Jerry Stackhouse and Rasheed Wallace in 2004, which led to some of that team’s implosion of not getting along. Dean also played Henrick Rodl over Donald Williams and started Ademola Okulaja over Vince Carter as freshmen because Ademola played better defense.
Dean also started Ranzino Smith and Warren Martin as upperclassmen. He didn’t insert Sam Perkins into the starting lineup until late into his freshman season, starting I think Pete Budko.
Dave Colescott also started at point guard his senior year, when it could be argued that Jimmy Black was better. He also started, as you said, Dudley Bradley, when Al Wood could be considered better. Although, I loved Bradley’s play and his steal against N.C. State and his dunk over Mike Gminski in the ACC Tourney Final are two of my favorite plays.
I just think, and maybe I’m wrong, but I have always felt like Dean Smith and Roy Williams, if there is not a clear cut separation in talent or need for the particular team, will play an upperclassman over a freshman…
Notable exceptions are: Mitch Kupchack (Necessity), Phil Ford and Walter Davis (talent), James Worthy and Michael Jordan (talent), Brad Daugherty (Necessity), Kenny Smith (Necessity plus talent), J.R. Reid (talent)… I don’t include the ’91 Freshman class or the ’96 freshman class because both of those started obviously out of necessity…Roy Williams’ 2006 freshman class fits into this category as well…
i think it was my mistake to join this blog. people are so negative, it is depressing. i said way earlier in the season about a game that “we stink”. i was firmly told i was wrong. stink is a little different from what i read now. i was embarrassed i said we stink. the things i read now really embarrass me. not what i said then. i’ll step out of this forum and find a different way to support the Heels. thanks for the forum THF.
Did Rodl start over Donald Williams?
Until about 10-11 games into the 1993 season…It was after the Rainbow Classic loss to Michigan, that Williams began starting…
It is pretty much fact that if Dean considered talent equal or about equal he gave the nod to upperclassmen over underclassmen. Dean has gone on record in his autobiography as saying he preferred it when freshman were not allowed to play on the varsity squad at all. He also had famous media flaps with Sports Illustrated because he would not allow Jordan to be photographed before his freshman season for the cover along with the other starters, and was incensed that SI chose to put JR Reid on the cover when he was only a freshman.
I think the difference is that Dean was usually able to get out of his own way or bend his own rules when he saw that it could benefit the team. I’m not sure if Roy has that same flexibility with his rules/decisions.
It’s funny that someone listed out the recruiting classes for Roy because I was just thinking about that last night while lying in bed. To me it’s obvious that the lack of recruits in 2007 really came back to bite us in the @ss in a major way this year. Couple that with a lack of quality recruits for the perimeter(both shooters and passers) and it was inevitable that we would struggle this year.
Looking back at it, I would say there were some gambles that were made in there that just didn’t pay off. Somebody hoped or believed that Drew would exceed expectations, it didn’t happen. What’s more someone overlooked the idea of a backup plan. Quite frankly there wasn’t one. Trying to convert Strickland to the point as a freshman was a fools hope at best and a waste of his real talent at worst. The decision to use Henson at the wing probably went back as far as the kid’s signing date. It doesn’t make sense for him to play anywhere else given the other kids that were here and in the pipe, especially when he was probably even more frail at that time then he is today. That decision didn’t work out either. Maybe he can play that role with more time to grow in to it but it was too much for him to learn as a freshman. Finally although many good(maybe even great) front court players were recruited while Hansbrough was here none of them have been able to fill his role. I’m not saying replace him because that is impossible, but we simply ended up with nobody who could fill space in the lane and hold their ground. I don’t know if someone hasn’t developed the way the coaches expected or if they just didn’t go after the right guys but it was clearly a risk to step in to this season without a banger down low and it has cost us almost as much as the lack of outside play.
A redshirt for Frasor so that he could play this year would have been a huge benefit to this team IMO. It would at least have given us a second option at the point and a second option for an outside shooter. Hindsight as they say is 20/20 I guess.
Marshall Barnes and Bollock are going to be the key to next year. If they can give us back perimeter shooting that will fix many of the problems we have right now. Marshall doesn’t have to be Ty he just has to be competent and have confidence. A fresh attitude from players coming off deep state tourney runs or championships could make all the difference in the world as well. We are still going to be thin at the point, especially if the Drew transfer rumors come true though. That is something that certainly needs to be addressed ASAP.
Somebody mentioned Pete Budko and that is correct. I got him and Christ Brust mixed up. They were from the early 80′s and had a similar game. Some of the other comments are about what I said. Smith would start many freshmen, like Perkins, Reid and Williams around the start of the new calendar.
One freshman that everyone forgets, who seemed much better his freshman year than his senior year (like J.R. Reid, although his senior year was in Charlotte) was Mike O’Koren, who was not a major talent, but sure had a great year as a freshman starter, making it freshmen starters for Dean Smith three out of four years. I always used to get annoyed with announcers who would say, “player X is Dean Smith’s number X freshman starter.”
Dean Smith had a freshman starter in Walter Davis, the second year that freshman were eligible, and he also started Phil Ford, O’Koren and Michael Jordan from day one. I can’t remember about James Worthy.
All of this is Brandan Wright’s fault. If he hadn’t gone pro, can you imagine the front court that we would have had?
William,
I didn’t think O’Koren started until Tommy LaGarde got hurt, but I could be wrong and you could be right, I just don’t remember, I was only 8 years old, Ha Ha Ha…
I think both Marvin Williams and Brandan Wright left a little too early. Not financially, but from a basketball standpoint. I think both, in hindsight, probably wish they would’ve stayed a little longer.
Also, no one has mentioned the Alex Stephenson transfer. I know he wanted to be closer to his family, but I wonder if he could’ve contributed… I know he had a decent season at USC until he got injured…
Worthy did start as a freshman, but was lost for the season when he broke his leg against Maryland. He was also playing very well…
In Dean’s book, he states that Worthy was the only player he has ever recruited that he “knew” would be star from day one.
William, unfortunately Wright would have been injured, as he hasn’t played this year for Golden State at all because of his shoulder injury. You could say that had he been here maybe he wouldn’t have been injured… oh wait, you couldn’t say that this season.
“If Larry Drew II plays like Bobby Frasor did at the point in 2006, which a lot of us thought was realistic, Carolina is more than likely preparing for a NCAA Tournament bid instead of NIT”
Evidently you remember something about Bobby Frasor’s freshman year that I don’t, look at the stats and DrewII’s year is equal to or better than Frasor’s 2006 season. The big difference is Frasor had a star in the post scoring 18-20pts a game and grabbing 8-10 boards, along with 3 excellent perimeter shooters in Noel, Miller, and Terry. DrewII had average play in the post at best and crappy perimeter shooting supporting his sophomore year at the point.
“A redshirt for Frasor so that he could play this year would have been a huge benefit to this team IMO.”
Again how? Frasor is/was not as quick as Drew and was also an even more erratic shooter than Drew. How would having another guy that can dribble and pass the ball around the perimeter, but not create his own shot have helped this team? Adding another role player to an already inept offense would not have changed the results one bit for the 2009/10 season..
scl11,
I think we can both agree that Frasor playing at the level he played at by the end of 08 would have been a better second choice at the point then Strickland can’t we? In addition to that I think it can be argued that Frasor was a better defender then either Drew or Strickland. In addition despite similar shooting percentage numbers I do believe that Frasor would have been a better perimeter threat then Drew was once Drew injured fingers on his shooting hand. I also disagree with the assertion that Frasor could not create his own shot. Furthermore I think he was a better passer then Drew and would have done a better job of feeding passes in to the low post. At least Frasor knew how to use a bounce pass. In the area of intangibles might it be the case that Drew would have had a better attitude as well if their had ever been a legit alternative at the point position to push him this year?
It is bewildering to me to think that some people believe that the addition of Frasor would have made us an NCAA team.
How is adding a mediocre offensive player going to change the fact that UNC can’t score? If Frasor had been on this squad, then we would have had this starting line-up: Frasor, Ginyard, Thompson, Davis and Graves, which would have been a team with even less offensive firepower than we put out there and would have just added one more mediocre guy to the mix.
Bobby Frasor was a nice guy. He tried hard and listened to the coach and suffered a lot of unfortunate injuries. He got to play on a title winner and contributed a little which was good payback for him. He was not, however, ever, a very good offensive player by UNC standards.
I actually do not think he was a very good back-up by UNC standards either, but Roy considered him a defensive genius because he knew where to stand on defense.
This keeps coming up over and over and I can only wonder if, because Frasor is white, that people are getting him mixed up with Wes Miller, who did have a truly wondrous year in 2006.
william,
Did you really say because Frasor was white people got him confused with Wes Miller? Please tell me that is a joke.
I think Frasor would have brought some nice qualities, especially in terms of leadership and I also think he was less mistake prone than Drew can be. Still, it is not like Drew’s stats are horrific, especially in terms of distributing the basketball. Frasor would have only been another poor shooter on a team that lacked good perimeter shooting. If you had Frasor, he might make smarter passes in some instances but I am betting the shots still don’t fall.
Well I don’t suppose it’s anything to argue about really. The point is moot since he wasn’t here and we will never know.
[...] when it comes to reporting UNC sports) did with many quotes from Marcus Ginyard. I have read what Tar Heel Fan talked about the piece as well, and I have my own thoughts on it, which can be summed up (for those [...]
I guess it was sort of a joke, but certainly, I have gotten players mixed up. I got Chris Brust and Pete Budko mixed up on here the other day, and yes, I am sure part of it was due to both of them being white, which should not surprise anyone.
It is not that hard to confuse two Irish guys about the same build like Matt Doherty or Mike O’Koren, either, and I probably have done that a few times as well. I probably have gotten Mike Pepper’s last name confused with Julius Peppers’ last name. I never have confused Henrik Rodl with anyone, though.
For whatever reason, many people seem to remember Frasor having this fantastic season back in 2006. Wes Miller was second in the country that year in offensive efficiency. Hansbrough was excellent, Noel and Terry were pretty good, as was Green. Both Frasor and Ginyard had offensive years that season similar to what Strickland and McDonald are experiencing this season.
I think we are putting too little emphasis on the point guard position. I think you guys are giving Larry Drew an out by saying he doesn’t have quality talent around him. It is the point guard’s job to make an offense run, and this was clearly evident in last ACC tournament when Ty Lawson was hurt. With 3 future NBA players (4 if you count Davis) the Tar Heels still lost to Florida State when Lawson was out. Never underestimate the importance of the point guard, and if we still had Lawson we would definitely be competing to make a run in the NCAA tournament (with the same talent) merely because he knows how to run a team. Larry Drew on the other hand does not, and until that changes UNC is going to find its self in trouble.
This is a good point on the surface, and you’ll get little argument that a quality PG is very important to the team. But Fla. St. was a pretty good team last year, whom we only beat by 3 pts. at their place with Ty having a great game.
Bobby Frasor (33 min.) and LD2 (17 min.) combined for 2 pts. and 4 assists in the ACCT Fla. St. game, and we almost won. Probably should have. It’s hard to know how we would have done in the ACCT title game, had we made it, or how far we would have gone in the NCAAT w/o Ty (w/ Larry playing many more minutes than usual), but we still would have been very competitive .
So I think this particular argument says more about how good Ty Lawson was last year (everyone said, all along, that as Ty Lawson goes, so go our hopes for a championship) than how bad Larry Drew is this year.
I don’t know how to quantify the relative importance, percentage-wise, of a PG to a teams’ success, but you can take a modestly-talented PG , put great players around him, and still do pretty well.
Our guard play at point was not good in last year’s ACC tourney. Add that to the fact that Roy doesn’t like the tourney and the result was not too good.