Needless to say this season for a UNC fan could be called the worst case scenario. A year ago we were all in Blue Heaven. UNC won a 2nd national title in five years. Roy Williams seemingly had a train rolling that no one was going to slow down. In fact we were all so drunk with expectations having been intoxicated by the wonder of the 2006 season that we figured more returning players and a nice incoming class meant a bigger return. It did not turn out that way as the Heels ended up finishing 2nd in the NIT and much worse Duke won the national title.
I imagine had this been a loaded Duke team, we might be coping with it a little better. After all when you look at 1991, 1992 and 2001 those Duke teams had elite talent the played at an elite level. Some folks downgrade 1991 but that team was simply a younger version of 1992 which is considered one of the better college teams in the modern era. An elite Duke team would be easier to stomach winning a title.
This was not one of those teams. If you have listened all season long, you have heard the same mantra over and over: Duke is not capable of winning a national title. They don’t have the interior game. They are too dependent on the three point shot. Jon Scheyer is good at PG but will be exposed against an elite PG like Sherron Collins or John Wall. The list of reasons went on and on. So yeah, it is frustrating to watch a team no one thought could win it actually end up winning. Frustrating that Duke got an easier regional then watch as the teams that could beat Duke in a Final Four, lose. Frustrating that Duke’s starting frontcourt was Lance Thomas and Brian Zoubek. Yeah, that last one really blows your mind doesn’t it? It is annoying Roy is back to trailing K by two titles. It grates the nerves to have the 5-3 lead in NCAA titles cut to one.
So it sucks to have Duke get the attention UNC got last season. It is not fun to deal with obnoxious Duke fans beating their chests and possibly humping said chests with other Duke fans.
And you know what the ugly truth in all of this is?
It is good for business where the rivalry is concerned.
UNC fans set their will against Duke because they are the greatest enemy. I do not subscribe to the “good for the ACC” mentality. The UNC-Duke rivalry supersedes all of that. If it didn’t, then I think it would be just like any other. No, I subscribe to the Campbell Doctrine which says you pull for Duke to lose by 50-60 or on a shot at the buzzer. I want to see heartbreak or humiliation inflicted on Duke when they take the court. That is the rivalry. However, it is not enough to simply hate for the sake of hate. Doing that is basically being an NC State fan. The hate between UNC and Duke is not simply about slinging vitriol at your greatest enemy. There are stakes involved. Really big ones. UNC and Duke don’t just trade wins or conference titles. They trade national titles. UNC and Duke engage in the ultimate back and forth, can you top this duel on the national stage. 1991-92 Duke wins two titles, UNC answers in 1993. Duke wins in 2001. UNC wins in 2005 and 2009. Duke responds in 2010. No two teams can attest to that kind of slugfest. It has been this way now for 20 years now and shows no sign of letting up. During this decade there have been some pendulum swings. It rode up in Duke’s favor until 2005 when it swung back to UNC. Now it appears to have swung back in Duke’s direction. The question is how far will it go up before it swings back? Does it really matter?
Yes, Duke won the title in 2010. This is their moment after five years of watching UNC enjoy two of them. The Heels take a step back for one season but anyone who knows Roy Williams also knows he will be back. The Heels will be back while Duke appears to have righted their own ship. The best rivalry in college sports just proved once again why it carries that distinction. My advice therefore is to endure, let them have their moment and rest in the historical knowledge that this too shall pass.
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The only positive that SHOULD come out of this is that no broadcaster should be able to talk about how great the Big East is until they win at least two more national championships.
I’m not the right person to say this, but I think this title for Duke makes this year worse than 2003. I can’t imagine the pressure on next year’s Tarheels, and how this year’s must feel.
I hate Duke. I hate them with a passion that burns hotter then a million suns. But I’ll give credit where its due. They worked hard. Period. As a UNC fan I hate to admit it but they did everything I hoped UNC would do. They had three players dramatically improve their game from one year to the next. UNC’s returning players (including two seniors) were no better this year then they were last year. Duke’s coach was flexible enough to recognize the limitations of his team and adjust his gameplan accordingly, while Roy continued to want to play a style of basketball that he hadn’t recruited the players to execute. Last, but definately not least, Duke had the kind of tough defense and physical rebounding that everybody thought UNC would have this year… but didn’t. The only positive thing that can come out of this season now is if UNC’s players players (and even the coach) look 8 miles down the road and learn some lessons from what they see.
surely you meant “bumping chests” instead of “humping chests” – both are disturbing mental images, though.
Is there a difference where Duke players are concerned?
THF, why do the wicked prosper?
^The wicked prospered in part b/c the good failed. Let’s be serious, this Dook championship is all the more galling in light of Roy’s total meltdown this year. From mistakes in player evaluation, to putting players in positions in which success was unlikely–and then calling them out to the media, to failing to alter his offense or defense to the strengths and weaknesses of his players, Roy seemingly validated all of the critics who say he is nothing more than a recruiter who can’t win–or even compete–with lesser talent. One can only hope that he either soon proves them wrong or gets the talent he needs to win, b/c we can’t handle much more of this.
Two titles in Roy’s case show he’s more than a recruiter who can’t coach. I don’t think that’s fair to say at all. To his defense, he’s never had to change systems to suit his players in over 20 years, so doing it this year must be that much tougher. K had about 6-7 years of struggle before he figured this out maybe 2-3 seasons ago. Having to make big changes mid-season or desperately trying different things throughout the season can only make things worse IMO. K makes adjustments to his system per his personnel, he doesn’t change systems. When hasn’t Duke been a dribble-drive and outside shooting team? He hasn’t asked them to do anything different this year except to kick it out 80%-90% of the time. There’s a difference between finding the right tweaks (not to mention having very specific, if limited roles for this players) and trying different systems. The only thing I would fault Roy for is still being recalcitrant to call a time-out on certain occasions, and probably not having fully learned that 25 years after the introduction of the 3 point line, teams can mold a very successful offense completely around it, so you have to defend it better.
Overall, I think this is why the 3 point line may finally help open up the play a bit. That’s a good thing, I think. On the other hand, teams may choose nothing but halfcourt sets and wasting 25 second of clock before running set plays for open 3′s, therefore slowing the game down. Remember too, this Duke team is heavy on seniors and juniors. K had 3-4 seasons of tinkering and guys getting their roles and improving in them. The other good thing coming from this is that the one-and-done approach took another hit from the experience philosophy. The bad news is that those little cheats on D are apparently okey-dokey and available to everyone, which kind of cancels out the benefits of adding the 3 point line. The high moving screens in particular may make the 3 too easy to get, so I expect the NCAA having to crack down on that eventually, lest everyone just rain 3s off of moving screens.
Now I’m rambling…
a perfect storm of luck.
Doc, any other time in the 64-team tourney that a team not only didnt play a Top 10 team all regular season, but arguably didnt play a Top 5 team in the tournament itself, based on rankings as the tournament started?
are these the most difficult teams dook played all season, in 40 games?
1)#11Georgetown
2)#8Butler
3)#23Maryland
4)#16/19Wisconsin
5)#5/6WV without their pg
6)#18ishGT?
7)#17ishClemson?
8)#10/11Purdue without Hummel?
9)#15/22Gonzaga?
10)um…UConn?
every year has some luck for some teams, no doubt. dook only played 3 of the teams on the above list in the NCAAT, and 2 of the 3 had a starter missing.
if youre a Top 10 team, it CAN fall into place, based on sheer talent alone, that you can reduce the real challenge of the NCAAT to 2 or 3 opponents, not 6.
Maybe its more about K working the schedule to perfection. ONE out of conference road game during the regular season.
Will Singler come back for another year, or is he headed to the NBA? I’m a bit concerned they’ve got a more athletic group coming in next year and, while losing Scheyer will be an impact (in terms of goofy facial expressions, floor-slapping, and scoring), Singler developed as the most irreplaceable on their squad and if he stays there will be talk of a repeat.
I enjoyed watching Butler..talk about a commodity in demand. Mr. Stevens, where should we send the truck loaded with money ?!
Golf will be the coping mechanism. Time to go play.
ap1,
So let me get this straight…Duke won the national title because UNC had a bad season and it’s all Roy’s fault? Do you really believe that?
i am still in shock that Purnell is reportedly leaving Clemson.
***
the 3 point shot is what…about 27 years old now? kids havent known a game without the 3. they take more and more 3s every year as they grow up.
the 3 was supposed to equalize the teams. to let less talented teams have a chance.
i dont think i like basketball as much with 25 3s a game being pretty standard issue. maybe its time to move the line back.
Well let’s look at the positive side, this will kind of force Roy to be less complacent. At Kansas, the Big 12 conference was dominated by Kansas, even when they did not win it all, they did not have a fierce rival capable of winning the NC just 7 miles down the road. This is ACC, this is the Tobacco Road. The humiliation of this season hopefully will rub some humility (which means no more talk of the ACC championship being a cocktail party, if this Duke team can win both, so should UNC), and flexibility (which means more half-court sets, occasional slower games, guarding the perimeter and better time-outs) into Roy. Roy maybe better off recruiting hard-nose competitors, who play hard and mean on the court rather than the softies that formed the core of this year’s debacle.
Johnny, I’m with you on Singler…he has really become a good player, and I think he’ll do well in the pros. My hope is he enters the draft after a championship season, and while his status looks the best. Because of the potential collective bargaining mess coming up next year, I think there will be a boatload of early departures.
If not, Duke could be very good next year. Kyrie Irving is a star in the making, Seth Curry might be too,and I look for them to have more of a conventional, inside-out game than this year. Add Nolan Smith to the mix (I actually thought he had more to do with Duke’s improvement this year than any one other thing), and the rivalry should be intense.
here it is:
The first post about Duke’s new era of dominance!!!!
http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2010-04-06/duke-king-blue-devils-outlast-butler-for-programs-fourth-natio#comment-851516
I always have an issue with this kind of instant analysis making some proclamation on the basis of one performance. In case you did not read it, the basic premise is this Duke team, without NBA lottery picks, a pure PG and with four year players is now the blue print for college basketball. Duke proved you can win without being an elite team. While all true, this is also referred to as “catching lightning in a bottle” or being the exception rather than the rule. Sort of like UNC in 2006. Anyway, the danger in proclaiming a new era of Duke dominance after one title run can be perfectly expressed in this:
2010 North Carolina Tar Heels
Didn’t we hear this last year? UNC and Roy are rolling? UNC gets Harrison Barnes and Duke is finished as a program? It is college basketball and the personnel turnover is staggering. Duke might very well be setup for another title run next year but end up like Kansas this year. Or Singler goes pro and they are good but not great with a freshman running the point. Either way, saying this one run heralds a new era of Duke is short sighted and premature.
^It is also kind of funny how in the run up to the title, everyone was talking about how important Zoubek and Thomas were to Duke’s run, yet in terms of next year’s team, their loss is not being mentioned at all…
THF,
I agree. I think the comment was posted to generate a reaction more than an honest assessment. I think this Duke team had luck which was similar to the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals. A lot of things had to call into place for the Cards to win the World Series. In the same vein, Duke needed a couple of injuries and favorable region to make it to the final game.
A lot hinges on Singler staying. If he does not, Duke still has interior issues and while I think the Plumlees are more athletics than Zoubek or Thomas and better offensively, there is something off about them or they would be playing more. Thomas and Zoubek played because they were the better options and despite the fact they had no offensive game. That says something about the Plumlees IMO and it ain’t good.
The wildcards for Duke next season are how good can Irving be coming to play PG and Seth Curry being eligible. Curry is allegedly the best player on the team right now. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.
The fact is we have a problem in the PG and SG positions. That problem will not change unless the coaching strategy changes. UNC played much better in the NIT, partly because we were playing lesser talent, but also because very belatedly the coaching staff realized that what worked with speedy PGs won’t work with the current roster. In fact, I doubt if Kendall Marshall can play that speed as well. Add to the mix a potential departure of Ed Davis and all of a sudden we are also thin in the front court. Bear in mind UNC did not recruit anyone in 2007 and that is coming back to bite us now.
But overall I really think that Roy needs to develop an alternative game plan for the professional development of his PGs. Until Felton came along (who incidentally had a much varied game due to playing under two coaches) every Roy Williams coached PG had been a bust at the next level because they never learned how to play a half-court offense or pick-n-roll plays.
Nolan Smith has already said he is returning for next year. It makes sense for him to stay, he was considered a borderline second pick. I think the Plumlees are taller versions of Mark Madsen. They have very very limited range. They are athletes, but they have to be under the rim. If Singler doesn’t come back, which he shouldn’t because his stock can not get any higher, I agree Duke will have some problems. Irving is projected as the second best player next year in the ACC. In fact, according to NBADraft.net they have him listed as the No. 2 player taken after Barnes. Of course, I want to see how these players do in the Nike Hoops Summit and regular reason before I anoint them.
carolinablue74,
I think Kirk Hinrich has been a fine NBA player. He was essentially the point guard at Kansas. The only reason why he was moved to shooting guard with the Bulls is that he can play alongside Derrick Rose.
So Duke wins a title and all some of you can do is flog Roy Williams some more. I wonder how Dean Smith would have fared if this blog were around in April, 1992?
As for myself, I am taking a wait and see approach. Roy Williams hasn’t been this good for this long without knowing what to do. I also know he is going to work really hard to fix what was broken and compete with the guys in Durham.
THF,
I don’t know. I mean shouldn’t UNC just lay down. It is the beginning of a new Duke era of dominance. lol
Kirk Hinrich got drafted by the Bulls in an act of desperation after losing Jay Williams. There was a lot of talk of trading him until he moved over to the SG spot and backup PG to Derrick Rose.
@THF, let’s face it we wouldn’t be so down if the Tar Heels had at least qualified for the NCAA. There was lot of talk that they would go to Elite Eight etc., but realistically people expected this team to do better than a 5-11 regular season and NIT. Much of that blame has to rest with the coaching staff. I really don’t care about who stays or who leaves dook, but I do care about who plays for UNC and that this debacle isn’t repeated again.
As far as Dean Smith goes, I still recall that he made it to the NCAA in 1992 with bunch of unheralded recruits.
“As far as Dean Smith goes, I still recall that he made it to the NCAA in 1992 with bunch of unheralded recruits.”
A bunch of unheralded recruits? Really??
You mean the 6 McD All-Americans and the sophomore class that was (at the time) considered the best recruiting class ever?
George Lynch was unheralded?
Hubert Davis was the only unheralded guy on the roster, and he averaged 21 ppg.
In comparison to the 1992 Duke roster….??
carolinablue74,
Jay Williams injury caused the Bulls to draft Hinrich but you can not deny Hinrich’s numbers as the Bull’s point guard. There is still talk of Hinrich being traded during the offseason. My point being that Roy Williams developed Kirk Hinrich. Hinrich was not a bust on the next level.
“but also because very belatedly the coaching staff realized that what worked with speedy PGs won’t work with the current roster. In fact, I doubt if Kendall Marshall can play that speed as well. Add to the mix a potential departure of Ed Davis and all of a sudden we are also thin in the front court.”
Roy’s system and pace is not all about “speedy PGs”, the 2009 Tar Heels got a lot of open court opportunities by pitching the ball ahead to Ellington and Green and having those two make plays or good decisions with the ball. Now compare that to pitching the ball ahead to Ginyard and Graves this season, where unless it was an open jump shot for Graves neither could make a play and rarely made good decisions with the ball. Now as you look to next season those pitch aheads end up in the hands of Barnes and Bullock, plus hopefully an improved Strickland and Graves, where all should have a higher ceiling on making plays along with good decisions with the ball in their hands when compared to this season. Add to that a more experienced DrewII that continues to improve his ability to make good decisions at a faster pace, and I think you are making a knee jerk assessment about playing at a slower pace in order to be successful until you can assess how the new talent along with the maturation of returning players meshes together in Roy’s system.
Also, how is having 4 post players (Henson, Zeller, T Wear, and D Wear) plus the potential to having Graves play in the post “all of a sudden thin”. Is it as talented as having Davis in the post rotations? No, but it is not thin.
I’m all for tempering expectations for next season after the debacle of 2009/10, but I think you are being very Chicken Little by saying Carolina all of sudden has no front court depth and can not be successful unless they slow the pace and try to keep the score in the 60’s next season.
^Roy’s teams in Kansas were always amongst the leaders in scoring and pace, and very few (if any) of his PGs were jets like Lawson. His teams were fast because they had bigs who could run and wings who could handle and shoot. This team has the former, and Barnes and crew should provide the latter…
THF, of course I don’t think Dook won b/c we were crappy this year. Dook won on its own merits. Our crappiness just made it harder to take. It also rubs salt in the wound of fans who are disappointed in the season, and in Roy’s total failure this year, but I’m guessing nobody feels that sting more than Roy, and that he will be back soon.
I highly doubt David Wear is coming back. A torn labrum is a career ending injury, maybe that’s the reason why the coaching staff was scouting junior college prospects. Travis Wear has been far less than impressive as a post player, he is an alternate version of Deon Thompson, with better rebounding skills. So essentially if Davis leaves we will have two really good post players, Henson and Zeller. Given Zeller’s propensity for injuries, I would say we are thin on the front court.
A season that goes as badly as this one is not the total failure of the coach. Sorry, not buying that. Is Roy ultimately responsible? Yes. Did Roy make mistakes? Yes. But injuries, effort, attitudes and the lack of production from certain players had as much to do with this season being the way it was than the coaching.
At any rate, I think this horse is dead. As soon as we know who will be on the team next season we can discuss in earnest how that will look. Until then try to avoid the TV for the next few days.
^THF is right, the senior class is as much to blame as Roy
“I highly doubt David Wear is coming back. A torn labrum is a career ending injury”
No it is not. ARod had surgery for this at the beginning of last year and still hit 30 homeruns and Caron Butler tore his over two years ago…
Umm, basketball is a much more active game than baseball. ARod does not spend 30+ minutes running up and down the court. Also we do not know the severity of the injury, but suffice to say that even after successful surgery he will not see any action for a long time.
^He had the surgery in March, so he will probably be back on the court in July.
Last week several people asked me if I would be rooting for Duke. As a UNC alum and fan, I had to tell them “I WILL NEVER ROOT FOR DUKE.” Duke has my congratulations, but Butler has my respect. I have nothing against most of Duke’s players, but I don’t like Coach K as an individual/leader/role model and I can’t stand the obnoxious Crazies and their full frontal assault on sportsmanship. Hearing Duke fan “Joe in Raleigh” call local radio stations is my own personal hell. It bugs the heck out of me that our major b-ball rival won, but also as a UNC fan I will never give up. UNC will have my support in good times and in bad. We’ll be back. Go Heels!
PRGuy: exactly. It’s not the players (I find the players on both teams have a much healthier perspective than others), it’s a coach who is good but is treated as some sort of choir boy, and Crazies who live vicariously through their team far more than is healthy.
“^It is also kind of funny how in the run up to the title, everyone was talking about how important Zoubek and Thomas were to Duke’s run, yet in terms of next year’s team, their loss is not being mentioned at all…”
Exactly, each season is a new team with new challenges plus strengths and weaknesses, unless like UNC in 2009 or FL in 2007 where your entire team returns in tack. The 1994 Carolina team was 3X as talented as the 1993 team, but one finished the season with a National Title and the other finished with a whole bunch of “ifs”, “ands”, and “buts”.
Singler and Smith will most likely return, Irving looks like a budding star at the point, and evidently Curry is killing it during practice (I also remember hearing how Mahkter Ndiaye was the greatest shot blocker ever during his practice sessions during the season he sat out after transferring from Michigan). But Scheyer, Zoubek, and Thomas were very key contributors that were pivotal in how Duke was successful this season and I don’t think their contributions will be easily replaced, and everyone wants to talk about how great the Plumlees are, but personally I haven’t been impressed (2 big guys that can jump and push or foul is all I’ve seen so far)
Let’s look at the potential rosters for UNC and Duke:
UNC
Starters
PG DrewII
SG Bullock
SF Barnes
PF Henson
C Zeller
Bench
PG Marshall
SG Strickland & McDonald
SF Graves & McDonald
PF Graves & D Wear
C T Wear & D Wear
Potential Addition = PF Ed Davis
Duke
Starters
PG – Irving
SG – Smith
SF – Singler
PF – Plumlee 1
C – Plumlee 2
Bench
PG – Thoronton
SG – Curry & Dawkins
SF – Curry & Dawkins & JC Recruit
PF – Hairston
C – Hairston
Potential Subtraction = SF Singler
I think the talent is very comparable and all though unproven the talent actually favors UNC, but Duke does have much more experience talent that has proven it over a college season with Smith and Singler. A couple things to notice is how young Duke is at PG, although Smith could play the PG position even though he really excelled this season on the wing, and how thin Duke is in the post. A lot of eggs are being laid in the basket of Irving being big time from Day one, Singler remaining for his senior year, and the Plumlees improving and remaining injury free. One thing is for sure, Duke is loaded at the 2 guard position, with 3 guys that might start for any team in the ACC, therefore, unlike UNC this season the ability to shoot will not be of any concern for Duke next season during their title defense.
I still think a lot hinges on Singler’s NBA decision, considering his stock will not get any higher than it is right now (remember the Sean May “Let’s do it again next year” quote, before the moment of clarity set in on the value of his MOP performance). If Singler stays Duke is easily the favorite for the 2011 title (both ACC and NCAA) assuming most of the anticipated players (wall, cousins, henry, turner, etc.) leave early for the NBA, but if Singler leaves early for the NBA you could argue that Duke might be in the same position UNC was entering this season, with a whole lot of dependencies on a brand new PG, young players, and role players being as good as they appear on paper or growing into more predominate roles.
Again let’s see how the rosters shake out on May 8th and then we can start the assessment work on next season.
Dook also has a juco transfer coming in this year at the SF position. All in all they have a pretty good balance of inside and outside players. But as I said before our perimeter game has to improve tremendously, and if Davis leaves we will be thin up front.
Lot of noise coming from out of UNC, including this from John Henson:
@ldrew2 they say @eddavis32 announcing his return this week…
Via @LDREW2:
RT @johnhenson31 @ldrew2 they say @eddavis32 announcing his return this week… <— yuuup, i think friday after his meeting w/ **THE MAN**
LDII confirms:
yuuup, i think friday after his meeting w/ **THE MAN**
Wow. If true, I didn’t see that coming, but it would certainly provide some post-Duke cheer……that plus the recruits tearin’ it up in the Hoops Summit this Sat.
^Not many would have. Could just be a prank though…
^ True. I’m not counting any chickens yet.
“Dook also has a juco transfer coming in this year at the SF position. All in all they have a pretty good balance of inside and outside players.”
So Carolina would have 4 players (Henson, Zeller, Twear, Dwear)that can play the post and 1 player (Graves) that can play both SF and the post, and you conclude that Carolina is thin in the post.
But
Duke would have 3 players (Plumlee 1, Plumlee 2, Hairston) that can play the post and 1 player (Singler) that can play both SF and the post, and you conclude that “they have a pretty good balance of inside and outside players”.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense……
BTW, if you have a need to vomit right now check out these Twitter updates from the Duke celebration orgy:
“K reasons for the long story-to make students aware the banners belong to students, too. Believes players/fans won together.”
“K landing the plane now….tells fans to lock arms, symbolizing “no weak links.”"
These people are really the most obnoxious and insufferable basketball fans on the planet and yes I say that realizing some UNC fans can be arrogant pricks. What the heck is this crap? Sounds like a freaking cult down there. Does Tyler Hansbrough know there are pagan rituals being performed in his building right now?
“K reasons for the long story-to make students aware the banners belong to students, too. Believes players/fans won together.”
This is insulting to his players…
^and insulting to people outside of New Jersey……
THF –
“… try to avoid the TV for the next few days.”
I avoided it last night, having a bad feeling for what was coming.
The problem is my nephew, a Dook freshman, who called me at 1 a.m. just to give me a bunch of junk. Smartass.
The other problem is that I’m going to have to live with it for an entire year, at least.
What you say about not being able to blame it all on Roy is correct. But there is no way he doesn’t get a considerable portion of the blame. The sad, sorry truth of it was that, this season — appropriately though maddeningly capped with last night — K got the most out of his talent and Roy fell well short with his. I agree that this is an anomaly with Roy. Still, with much the same crew back next year (minus the two seniors, whom he apparently liked a lot), he needs to think hard about the source of this year’s problems and how they’re going to get corrected.
I knew I should have gotten my nephew into Stanford. He’s going to be stuffing this down my throat forever — or at least until we beat the crap out of them, which had better darn well be no farther off than ten months. Otherwise, I’m REALLY going to get cranky in my old age.
The really scary part for us next year is we are puting all our hopes and wins on a couple of freshman. Very iffy.
UNC33 –
“Why do the wicked prosper?”
Farther along, we’ll understand it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc6mcKUucaw