Okay, why didn’t UNC release this like two hours ago to avoid the circus at the bus loading?
UNC announced that six Tar Heels would be ineligible for the opener vs LSU and six others would be held out pending the conclusion of the investigation. Also, three other players were not traveling at this time. Here is the release:
The six ineligible student-athletes include: defensive tackle Marvin Austin, cornerback Charles Brown, cornerback Kendric Burney, wide receiver Greg Little, defensive end Michael McAdoo and defensive end Robert Quinn.
Six other student-athletes who will be withheld from Saturday’s game include: tailback Shaun Draughn, defensive end Linwan Euwell, safety Brian Gupton, tailback Ryan Houston, safety Da’Norris Searcy and safety Jonathan Smith.
The number of games that those 12 student-athletes may miss has not been determined at this time. The investigation continues to include both agent-related and academic issues.
The University also continues to work today with the NCAA to determine the eligibility status of three other student-athletes. Those three will not accompany the team to Atlanta on Friday morning. Further information will be announced when a decision on their status for the game is reached.
Robbi Pickeral at the N&O is reporting the three unnamed players with their eligibility flapping in the breeze are Quan Sturdivant, Bruce Carter and Deunta Williams. It is my understanding that these three could have their eligibility issues worked out and travel to Atlanta on Saturday.
So let’s be clear on what this means. If the list of 15 holds UNC will play LSU missing their entire starting secondary, two All-ACC caliber linebackers, two NFL prospect defensive linemen, their #1 WR and the lion’s share of the running game.I guess that means Zach Pianalto is going to have like 20 receptions or something. If UNC can get at least Carter, Sturdivant and Williams eligible that helps but I am extremely pessimistic about UNC’s chances in a game with huge chunks of key personnel missing from both sides of the football.
On a side note, Joe Schad is reporting on Twitter than there could be more which does not line up with UNC’s position that anyone in question would not travel. By all accounts everyone is traveling sans the 15 players indicated by UNC and local media. It is possible UNC decides to hold players out on the basis of the academic probe but if there are others why not simply lump them in with the limbo trio?
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Lineup:
DE – Paige Moss
DE – Couples
DT – Powell
DT – Nix
LB- Reddick
LB- Brown
LB- Davidson
CB – Jackson
CB – Fantroy
S- Merletti
S- Campbell
I guess the 2011 Season has come a year early.
Special teams will be VERY fatigued.
Oh f&%&^%^% well.
what in the world did Quinn, just now a junior, do, if we take him at his word that he didnt cheat via a tutor?? UGH.
Brown AND Burney. there must be actual proof then on the tutor thing, right? they werent in the NCAA investigation, is that right?
The story now is Quinn has an agent issue. That is strange since when this all started, Quinn’s name was notably absent from the purported list of players interviewed concerning agent issue. Quinn also represented UNC at ACC Kickoff which gave the impression he was clear. Then again they might be holding everyone out who had contact with the tutor and he admitted he worked with her but did not cheat.
if he really has an agent issue, thats just dumb. Seniors can get away with a certain amount of agent contact, but he just came off his sophomore year!
Friend at the Herald-Sun tells me that Deunta, Bruce and Quan could still be cleared in time to travel tomorrow and play, but that as of now, they’re out. It sounds like it’s about a 50-50 proposition that they’ll be cleared in time.
Hmmmm… someone said 12 in a recent post…
don’t believe what you hear was the response…
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5527407
How do you have 15 key players involved in either “alleged” agent or academic fraud issues and basically have zero clue until the NCAA comes knocking on your door? Time to get the football house in order. If members of academic support, compliance, coaches, and administration do not lose their jobs over this disaster then this University has zero leadership whatsoever. This has gone from a couple rouge players running fast and loose with agents to the entire starting lineup being ineligible for either academic or agent issues. Thou who shall not be named was fired for less.
someone is furiously looking through papers/assignments and talking to TAs.
i just hope that the players we ARE playing can stay healthy, because there’s next to no depth available.
freshmen that may have redshirted, might have to play.
losing to LSU, while disappointing given the expected clash, isnt the end of the world, but having GT next…having ECU in the 4th game especially, THOSE games are ones we want. i hope we arent sitting all 12-15 guys 4 weeks from now.
As long as UNC has Yates at QB then they have a chance…….
SCL11,
The academic fraud happens without your knowledge because it happens everywhere and because it’s so easy to do and conceal. Esp. in a program like football where there’s 85+ kids to try and keep track of.
It doesn’t even require a rogue tutor; All you need is one undergrad sharing a class with an athlete who’s looking for extra beer money. Hell, a guy in my wife’s office was bragging literally yesterday about how he used to write papers for football players at Alabama just for a little extra weekend cash.
It’s sad, but it’s a reality.
So we “think” everybody does it so we should just give a pass. Sorry but I have higher standards than that………..
scl11,
It is possible to do everything right from a compliance and academic support angle and still have players ignore the rules. In fact it is safe bet that many athletes at all schools seek out individuals outside the academic support program to help them with their school work. If it comes out that none of the current members of academic support had any hand in players cheating then this is basically the same issue as you had with the agents where players make bad decisions. I am pretty sure if the NCAA started rifling through emails of players at NCSU, Duke, etc, etc, etc they would find evidence of academic issues. I am not saying it is right, I am saying that is reality. College students across the board cheat and do so without any help from an academic support program. I am not sure why we think athletes are any different.
RATS!
Look on the bright side. At least we will get a chance to see many of the future players and our rookies should fare no worse than the hapless Carolina Panthers who failed to score an offensive touchdown in all of their pre-season games!
In all seriousness, I am much more concerned about the lasting integrity of my University than about the stupid decisions made by some who I hope never play another game in a Tarheel uniform. I will pull for the remaining players and coaches who are left to play this game with LSU and who remain cleared to participate for the rest of the season.
Go Heels!!
I’m with HttE – while this investigation and suspending players right before such a high profile game is VERY annoying, it is not the end of the world. It is a non-conference game, and rankings don’t mean squat at this time of year. Let’s get the house in order, try not to embarrass ourselves on national TV, and get guys back in time for conference games.
Heard a rumor that they are trying to get any future game suspensions staggered, so we aren’t so short on players each week. A feeble attempt to get a bone thrown our way for being so cooperative with the investigation, seems to me.
TarHeel cuz is right. I include myself in those who didn’t want to believe many of the rumors.
However, wouldn’t it be great if this group of Heels beat LSU….
scl11 is confusing it happening with letting it happen and letting it pass.
as i said once before, there are guys in PRISON, on lockdown 23 of every 24 hours a day, that BREAK the rules. do they get caught? most of the time. but that doesnt prevent them TRYING and DOING and getting a shortterm reward with the hope of not being found out.
its OBVIOUS we arent letting it pass.
If we were letting it pass, we’d definitely have 15 more bodies on the plane to ATL right now. FWIW, the final score tomorrow night will never be stricken from the record books, that’s for sure.
Another thing to consider – while it certainly stinks to be missing the 1st team defense (and our top two running backs – ugh), the true growth of a program is building depth. Not saying that I really like our chances tomorrow night, but I am quasi-optimistic that we might actually surprise a lot of folks tomorrow night.
Time for the kids to eat at the grown-ups table.
THF, 15 players? That is an epidemic, not just a couple guys “ignoring the rules”.
And I love the excuse that everyone does it so it must be OK, so when will LSU announce all of their ineligible players?
So the “Carolina Way” really means as long as everyone else does it we’re OK with it.
dude, seriously. where are you reading “we’re OK with it”?
scl11,
And please show me where I said give anyone a pass? I think I was crystal clear a couple of posts back when I fleshed this out that the guilty should be punished. My point is a response to you saying UNC needs to clean house over this when it is possible UNC did everything by the book on their end but the presence of the NCAA uncovered the type of academic cheating that goes on everywhere with athletes and regular students alike. Like players taking money from agents, it is difficult to stop a player from paying someone $100 to write a paper for them. You can educate them and provide them academic support so they do not feel the need to do those sorts of things but at the end of the day some players are going to strike out on their own and make a bad choice.
The only reason this came to light is because players confessed to it during the NCAA investigation and also conducted some of this business via emails. Now that is has come to light, yes UNC needs to drop the hammer and deal with it in hopes are deterring other players from making the same mistake. However if there is no evidence anyone working for UNC did anything wrong then I have trouble with saying this is somehow the fault of leadership. If UNC does not take the proper steps to punish the guilty or we find out there are tutors writing papers for players then I will join you in calling for heads to roll otherwise I am not sure what it achieves to fire people because players are cheating of their own volition.
The best advice right now is wait for all the facts to come in and we will see what really happened. Calling for people to be fired without knowing how this all transpired in premature. My sense is this was one rogue tutor no longer working with the athletic dept who helped a few players. I also think no one should get to hung up on the current number. Holding this many out might be out of an abundance of caution and not a sign that many are guilty.
So, if guys like Brown and Burney are on the “ineligible”list and not the “withheld” list, do we have a partial confirmation of the NCAA matter, or a confirmation that they cheated academically?
Hey, we play football tomorrow night and regardless I’m ready for that to happen. You want competition for positions, we got it all right.
I would ask that the contributors would not mention what Joe Schad is saying. I don’t really care about Joe Schad, he’s a little much like Paris Hilton right now. Look at me, look at me, I’m Joe Schad.
I ran this morning to avoid the storm and tuned into AM 620 to get some idea of what happened but couldn’t get past the Taylor Zarzar celebration of UNC’s troubles. I thought he was okay but clearly I was wrong, I tried to listen for about 10 minutes but I couldn’t ever get anything worth listening too. So Bomani was on the street for this guy? I know Bo would take some shots and I would expect that I’d here a Sanford and Son reference but what I heard on the radio was a joke. Based on this I’m guessing the future of journalism will sound a lot like people talking on Xbox or the PS3. Yay.
Also, it should be noted that the list of suspended/accused/implicated players backs up the premise of a single rogue tutor, as opposed to systemic cheating throughout the entire athletic department. while I never played football, I always hear from announcers how the defense has meetings separate from the offense, then the position groups on each side of the ball break down into their own meetings. Those guys are together a whole lot of the time, and I’m sure that they talk about a lot more than football. So, my un-educated guess is that word spread through the defense that there was a tutor willing to “help out” with some work.
Next thing you know, here we are, unable to actually talk about the game being played tomorrow.
I would categorized them as such:
Ineligible: Either the NCAA or the UNC compliance office has determined they are not eligible for yet to be announced reasons. Could be agent related, academics related or something unheard of. I take this to mean these players are guilty of something and will serve some type of suspension.
Held Out: Currently under investigation but cannot determine their status and will not be able to do so prior to Saturday.
Limbo: UNC is close to knowing whether these three can play. It might be an matter of doing one last review or they might be waiting for the NCAA to review UNC’s findings and sign off.
And if its the agent investigation, isn’t 4 games the likely top suspension? And if its the academic matter, it gets fuzzy? Unc-wise, possible probation, but a separate possible suspended from the team for violating team rules?
“Unc-wise, possible probation, but a separate possible suspended from the team for violating team rules?”
That all depends on the sanctions from the honor court. The NCAA has continuing eligibility requirements. Those are:
12 hours attempted per semester
6 credits earned per semester
Minimal overall GPA: 1.8-2.0 depending on year in school
Progress toward degree. Declared by 3rd year, certain percentages complete by end of 3rd, 4th year in school.
So, let’s say Player A submitted a paper written by someone else last spring. The sanctions are he receives a failing grade for that class. If he only had six credit hours then he fails to meet the NCAA’s requirement to stay eligible. If he received a 3.0 in the class and it pushed his GPA above 2.0 but now with the failing grade it drops below 2.0 then he is ineligible. Reading the honor code at UNC there are various sanctions. Failing grade is one. Having a student do extra work to make up is another option. There is also a vague “Other Requirements” which could be anything. It all depends on how UNC sanctions the academic misconduct and whether that in turn affects their NCAA eligibility.
So… question for the “its unavoidable, it happens everywhere” crowd. IF it is unavoidable to have around 50% of the starters on a football team cheating and/or violating NCAA rules AND you are a University that prides itself on integrity and doing things the right way, then should you even have a football program? (IF you truly believe that that is unavoidable or happening everywhere…)
The question there is whether athletes are cheating at a higher rate than the general student population? It is possible but is there a real difference between a star football player cheating because he does not care about his classes and a frat boy cheating because he is partying too much? Yes and no. With the athlete he is getting a free ride and so there is a certain level of expectation but still I am hard pressed to draw a huge distinction there.
No, the biggest elephant in the room is whether some of these players have any business being in college. If you lower standards and bring in guys who would not be there otherwise or guys who were it not for their God given talent to play a sport would not even think about college, it is bound to create a culture where corners get cut. That is the great contradiction of the so called student-athlete. Winning in major football or basketball means taking the best available talent who is willing to sign your school’s LOI. It also means some of those players are not going to do great in the classroom or are not going to give a crap about their education. The inevitable result is players taking easy classes, cheating and doing whatever necessary to stay eligible. But at the same time, there are plenty of regular students who approach college with the same attitude and therefore cheat.
In other words, UNC and everyone else mortgaged the whole academic integrity house a long time ago when college athletics became a huge revenue maker. As I said all any athletic department can do is give athletes the tools they need and hope it limits the off book cheating. However even that is something that happens across the entire student population the question is whether it happens more in the athletic dept than it does in the dorms?
RAJ,
By your logic you should also be asking:
Given that students cheat, should we even have a university?
Given that life isn’t perfect shouldn’t we all build a bunker and go live in it?
I appreciate the high standards that many hold for UNC, which I share, but I would submit that this investigation is PROOF of our high standards. This stuff would get swept under the carpet in most places.
Chancellor Thorp said last week the university would be defined not by the problem but by the response to the problem.
I know I have said, along with many others, that those who violated rules must be held accountable for their actions. Similarly, if systemic wrongdoing is found, those in charge need to go as well.
On the other hand, I am not willing to go so far as to call for blanket dismissals and firings until due process has run its course.
THF has said before that sometimes, at the end of the day, it is up to a group of 18-22 year-olds to do the right thing.
And you can appeal/delay Honor Court proceedings.
^Nathan – If 50% of the students cheat and break rules, then we shouldn’t have a University. However, I don’t believe that 50% of students cheat. I also believe that it is possible to have a football team where less then 50% of the starters cheat and break rules.
Look – if this was a case where 2 or 3 starters broke rules I’d be with everybody else who is saying that you are going to have this level of malfeasance everywhere, the only thing unique about UNC is that it was discovered. But the number of players involved is not 2 or 3… its staggering… way more then you can just shrug your shoulders at.
WHO is shrugging their shoulders at this? This is the largest sports/academic /NCAA scandal in over 50 years if not EVER at UNC. Who are these people shrugging?
Welcome to the biggest fiasco in UNC sports history.
I know one person that I believe should not be on the bus and he has the erudite name of Butch.
I hope we lose by 50 points so that the NCAA ends up getting punished just as much as we fans. I have hard time believing that the NCAA’s television partners are happy about this.
This has never happened in my recollection at any Division I shcool, let along UNC, where a team simply sheds the major part of its good players just before game time. One or two possibly.
God, I am not all about controlling people’s lives, but email and twitter are for suckers. Congress has given people specific privileges on the phone and it is extremely difficult for prosecutors to wiretap, but these kids today just give it away for free. Anybody who uses email to converse about anything about all but the most mundane things in life, especially in the business world is an idiot. No matter what a person says in a text or email, it is highly susceptible to being misinterpreted and usually received in the worse possible light.
You have all been warned.
So the objective is to not get CAUGHT cheating? To use coded hand delivered messages and encrypted disposable phones?
I thought the objective was to not cheat.
^There are people who are suggesting that the guy who is in charge of the football program… the guy who is paid $2M a year to manage the football program shouldn’t take any blame for this because keeping half your starters from cheating is hard or something. I consider that a shrug of the shoulders.
To me it’s like saying the CEO of BP shouldn’t have lost his job because he can’t personally inspect every oil rig in the gulf… or the CEO’s of big banks on Wall Street shouldn’t have lost their jobs because they can’t personally review every loan or trade that is made by the people underneath them.
So let the people who make big bucks (including Butch Davis) make big bucks but don’t hold them accountable for anything. But hey, maybe that’s the new world we live in. I don’t know.
Best line of the day, if you have a really good sense of humor: “Look on the bright side.” (from nativeheel)
Thing we need to think about most: “…the biggest elephant in the room is whether some of these players have any business being in college.” (from THF)
I guess I have a couple of observations. The first is the obvious — disappointment, big time. It now seems very likely that our football season will wind up like last year’s basketball season: A lot of hope that came crashing down. Only this time it’s going to crash a lot faster. Indeed, it may well have crashed when the bus left Chapel Hill today, minus 15 of our best players. We can root for the team all we want, but we have to expect a losing season, perhaps a doormat season. Not to mention the howls from the other schools. You can’t make reality go away by wearing a smiley face.
Second, this is an occasion to try to figure out the quite difficult (to me) conundrum of big time college athletics. We all want a kick-ass team and an invitation to one of the few bowls that still actually means something (other than money). On the other hand, it seems that we cannot compete at that level without players who indeed are questionable material for college. And “questionable” is a euphemism.
I don’t know the answer to this. Perhaps it’s to have an ACKNOWLEDGED (rather than slightly hidden) two-tier admissions policy, one for regular students who would be expected to be academically fully capable, and a second for athletes, who would not bear that expectation, but for whom every effort would be made at remediation. They would not be required to have the same SAT’s as regular students, but they would be required to TRY — go to class, take it seriously and, of course, not cheat.
This would resemble what is going on now, with the improvement of being more open about it. But I’m sure others will have suggestions more educated than mine.
The objective is not to cheat, but there are a whole host of gray areas in life Take a look at the “honest services” doctrine which over-zealous prosecutors have used to ruin people’s life, and which was recently largely overturned by the Supreme Court.
Two separate points, one, don’t cheat or break the law. Two, keep your own business private.
Good point, 850.
It is not just about monitoring and awareness.
Is this regime recruiting quality individuals or just random athletes? I don’t think you had to monitor Tyler Hansbrough a whole lot.
“There are people who are suggesting that the guy who is in charge of the football program… the guy who is paid $2M a year to manage the football program shouldn’t take any blame for this because keeping half your starters from cheating is hard or something. I consider that a shrug of the shoulders.”
No but if and let me emphasize if we find out that all of this crap happened because players acting as adults mind you decided to pay someone to write a paper rather than do it themselves then please tell me what Butch Davis is supposed to do about that? There is only so much control a coach and AD can exercise over players. Also, if you think it is only football players doing this kind of stuff I have a bridge in New York for sale as well.
All that being said I think there is merit to a discussion of Davis’ accountability. The first will be if John Blake had a huge role in the agent issue. Not saying I know anything but Davis hired Blake, reputation and all so that is a point of criticism. Another point is whether Davis did a good enough job recruiting what Roy Williams likes to call “character kids” Did Davis recruit with much regard for the possibility he could be getting players who are less than upstanding citizens. That would be tougher to prove IMO but you can certainly argue it. I also think you could argue the sheer extent of the damage and players involved means Davis has failed but at the same time it is possible to have players making bad choices.
I again would caution everyone to not get hung up on the number of players right now. I think UNC cast a wide net and in the end the damage might be far less than we think based on the 15 named.
Just a side note. Wisconsin in 2000 had 26 players sanctioned for improper benefits and those suspensions were staggered over several games. The coach Barry Alvarez said he stood by his players and even said he did not think they did anything wrong. Barry Alvarez’s current position? AD at Wisconsin. No real point, just thought it was interesting.
No no no, It isn’t like the BP executive or the Wall St executive.
Butch and staff have to inform and educate the players as to their two responsibilities as students and athletes.
Grunts at BP cut corners with either the consent or looking away of supervisors on up the line. In the course of their one job, their specifically designated job.
The BP exec doesn’t fire himself when said grunt goes home and emails some child pornography.
What system would you put into effect where you could prevent the ATTEMPTS of cheating via email.
There are few perfect comparisons, but Roy and Dean tried to recruit good citizens, and apparently K does too. Does Butch?
I understand that the wider the number of people you have to recruit, the more problems you might have, but on the other hand, why are so few of us surprised that this is happening now as opposed during the last three regimes?
THF,
I think you are mistaken about the honor code at UNC — but I may mis-remember. IIRC, there is no making up work, and there is no leeway in the punishment. If you are found guilty of cheating, you receive an F for the course and you are out for at least a semester. I don’t think there is a guarantee of re-enrollment either (most people transfer after cheating I think).
At least that is what I recall from UG. My graduate degrees are from Clemson, and I remember being surprised to hear that cheating punishment was basically up to the teacher, and the student got an opportunity to replace the grade by retaking the class. That was not the case at UNC circa 1998.
Honor violations appear before the honor court, the chancellor or AD does not have the power to change that I believe — only the board of trustees.
The one issue with football is the sheer number of players needed to field a team which increases your odds of having a few bad apples. With only 13 scholarship players in basketball and a handful of recruits per year it is easier to get a grasp on certain things. In football you can bring in twice the basketball roster per season which makes it more difficult.
Why is it so difficult for some people to believe that it is entirely within the realm of reason and possibility that these players simply took the easy way out and cheated on their papers?
There doesn’t have to be a fall guy, there doesn’t have to be a “lack of institutional control”, there doesn’t have to be any conspiracy theories.
I despise this phrase, but it seems to apply here:
what if it just is what it is?
There is always an issue of the types of players a football coach takes a chance on. Look at Oklahoma and Miami back in the late 80′s. Both were very successful and had poor reputations for sportsmanship, although I don’t think either was caught during this period.
On another note, actually, the polls are everything for a team like UNC at this point in the year. Analysts have proven basically that a top 15 team that loses its first game, has no chance at winning the national title. If you are going to tell me that they can still go 8-4, then enjoy it, because I have very little interest in such a scenario. We have great soccer teams, basketball teams, baseball team, and lacrosse teams at UNC. Why should I have any interest in a seemingly out of control football team that goes 8-4?
All you football guys should be the most livid of all. You know that football will never be equal to basketball but we were hoping for a season like Kansas had in football a couple of years ago. This was the chance.
brsett,
I was going off this:
http://instrument.unc.edu/instrument.text.html#availablesanctions
1. Academic Sanctionsincluding but not limited to the following:
a. Failing Grade. Receipt of a failing grade in a course, component or aspect of a course, or on an assignment.
b. Educational Assignment. Satisfactory completion of an additional educational assignment, course, or program with or without credit.
c. Other Requirements. Other requirements or conditions designed to assure that prior academic misconduct is remedied and does not recur in the future.
d. Implications for Academic Retention of Graduate or Professional School Students. In the case of graduate or professional school students, the imposition of an academic sanction in the form of a failing grade in a course shall not in itself be grounds for terminating the affected student’s enrollment in the academic program in which he or she is enrolled, except when the pertinent academic authorities independently determine that such termination is warranted pursuant to pertinent academic rules and requirements.
–
I think is poorly paraphrased the 2nd one in my post.
at the risk of repeating myself,
you can be a Captain of the Ship theorist and say Butch is accountable, period. in which case, fire yourself if your 5yo ever kicked a classmate at school or your 16yo ever skipped school. what do you mean you cant watch them 24/7?
there’s did Butch or guys he hired know and look the other way. FIRED.
there’s did Butch and staff fail to educate, inform and REMIND the players of their responsibilities as student-athletes at UNC, through word, programs and policies. FIRED.
there’s did Butch and staff recruit kids that they knew were less than great character, or came from schools that looked the other way or even aided athletes in passing academic work.
harder to determine, but if it happens again, FIRED.
there’s Butch and staff did everything they could and a player or two took the lazy way out and influenced some other number of players to do the same. NOT FIRED.
when big bucks are dangling from a stick just a little way down the road, people do things that are ethically and morally wrong. in all walks of life. at every age.
you get caught, you suffer the consequences. and we will.
think how angry the players that DO follow the rules and wanted to have a special year must be.
we may have a good year yet, but we are unlikely now to have a SPECIAL year. thats off the table. thats why we’re all PO’d.
HTTE –
“So the objective is to not get CAUGHT cheating? To use coded hand delivered messages and encrypted disposable phones?
I thought the objective was to not cheat.”
Nailed it.
One may acknowledge the truism that there are “gray areas in life,” while remaining quite sure that plagiarism is not among them. It’s cheating, and every college student knows it.
Plagiarism is among the least pernicious forms of cheating. There is copying from someone next to you during an exam. There is turning in a paper you didn’t do. There is sleeping with a professor. There is falsifying results. There is changing a grade online a la Ferris Bueller. Those are damnable.
Most forms of plagiarism involve negligence, and negligence, per se, generally involves shades of gray. So yes, whether some one plagiarized often does involve shades of gray.
Not at UNC. At UNC copying someone else’s work during an exam is plagiarism. That is how they define it. Anytime you pass off anyone else’s work as your own, under any guise, its plagiarism. It all falls under the same umbrella — and during my time there, it had but one punishment. It does make for a nice, zero-tolerance sort of atmosphere. Which isn’t to say that cheating did not occur. But everyone I know who cheated was aware of how stiff the penalty was as well.
Falsifying results was a separate offense. I suspect it still is. Academic dishonesty.
And those were the only two classes of offenses that I even recall. There was some conduct policy also, and I remember the blackout/date rape case while I was there vaguely. But I was a freshman during that and behaving too foolishly to really recall it clearly.
Grateful Dead’s “Touch of Grey”. I will get by. I will get by. I will survive.
My angst at all of this, is only matched by the glee of the Wolf Pack. This may be the happiest day of some of their lives, leaving out a specific day in 1983.
On the other hand, for me, this has been a difficult day to stomach. I knew it was coming, but… It would have been nice to win Saturday. It would have been nice to go to a bowl that means something, but for the reputation of my school to be a joke to much of the athletic world today hurts. I graduated in 1974 and was a fan prior to that. Never in my imagination did I picture such a day…
Plagiarism is passing off as your own the work of another. One frequent example of this is, as you put it, “…turning in a paper you didn’t do.”
I don’t know, and none of us knows, the extent of the “help” this tutor provided, but it’s clear enough that she either wrote entire papers, or parts of papers, for some of these guys, and they passed her work off as their own. That is precisely what you condemn as “damnable,” and it does not involve shades of gray.
I am against pulling a Mike Nifong/Duke stunt here, by preemptively condemning any player in order to play suitably pristine and politically correct to the NCAA. But if, as seems more likely than not on what is presently known, players were having the “tutor” write papers that they would then sign and turn in, that is a clear-cut case of plagiarism and will have to be dealt with as such, with no wiggle room for non-existent “gray areas.”
P.S. Sleeping with a professor is not cheating per se. It can be cheating if the student is doing it to get a better grade than she/he would otherwise merit. But if the student is of legal age, and there is no corrupt motive on either side, it’s not cheating.
It is something students and teachers are best advised to stay away from, that’s for sure — since it’s fraught with potential complications — but standing alone it isn’t cheating.
could it be that these were “character” kids who made a mistake? could butch & co have gotten all the right recommendations and properly assessed the recruit’s general level of honesty? could they have determined that the recruit was a “character” kid in that he not going to carry guns around, do drugs, hire prostitutes, get drunk and disorderly, etc. but was going to be a good citizen and get involved in charity work, be a good big buddy, etc.?
have you ever hired anyone or was a co-worker to anyone who had all the right credentials, awesome resume, wonderful interview but didn’t turn out that great? maybe the credentials were exaggerated or resume was falsified or the person was just a great talker who leaves good first impressions?
don’t fault butch for recruiting these kids. from all i’ve read, most of these kids are alright.
Here’s my thing. For starters, none of us knows for certain exactly who did what or exactly what they did. We’re talking about 15, but that means we’re all assuming all 15 DID cheat, when, in fact, the university all but said, yeah six of these guys could be clear, but we haven’t finished checking them out.
We just had a major debate about how the justice system railroads people into pleading guilty for something they didn’t do and yet we might well be doing the same thing right now, so why don’t we withhold judgement until actual FACTS come out. Now, yes, six guys were declared ineligible, but that’s not far from the 2-3 threshhold you were talking about 850.
As for Butch, he is not Tony Heyward and he is not Goldman Sachs. Heyward got canned because he basically said “yes, it sucks that oil is spewing into the gulf, but why let that ruin my golf game.” No one ever disputed that the guy couldn’t personally check every rig, they disputed how he handled the disaster once it happened. I believe UNC, Butch and Baddour in particular, are handling this as well as can be expected. Wall Street got into hot water because they actively promoted an atmosphere in which bankers should TRY to screw their customers and run away with their money. Last I checked Butch wasn’t running around shouting “HEY LET’S ALL CHEAT OUR ASSES OFF!!!” In fact, given that he’s seen what NCAA sanctions do to a program and given that he can be canned without payment for knowingly overseeing an NCAA violation, something tells me he’s probably saying “for the love of God, let’s all cheat.”
It seems to me, we’re all doing a big dook lacrosse rush to judgment and that’s dangerous. Do I like what’s going on? No, not one bit. But I also know that there’s still more that needs to come out. If evidence is uncovered that Butch knew this was going on and didn’t stop it, then yes, not only do I want him fired, but I want him paying the cost of my season tickets lo these last few years, but until then, let the process play out.
Ok – lets switch gears then. Lets assume that this sort of malfeasance is unavoidable and the trick is to not only discourage it but (accepting that it’s going to be there no matter how much you discourage it) also avoid drawing attention to it (God, I can’t believe its come to this…)…
Then can somebody explain to me how a major University can have a PR Department, an IT Services Department and offer Communications as a major yet be so utterly, abysmally clueless about the latest social media and the trouble that one of their players is setting them up for with comments he is making via that social media?
850,
that sounds like a question i had when i was in b-school at unc. “given how great unc’s athletic programs are, why is there no sports marketing class, let alone a major? why is there no sports psychology class, let alone a specialty within psych?”
many things that appear rational and simple are not always so.
i think the answer to future problems is a revamped prevention program and revamped governance process in the athletics dept, with strict and swift repurcussions that are harsher for athletes since their noncompliance impacts the school and other athletes more than a regular student’s noncompliance.
I don’t mean to rush to judgment and the facts must come out and assume they will in the context of the student honor system. Thus, we wait and we should rightfully wait so that our great university gets it right. If it is as bad as it appears Butch bears the blame as he must. Does anyone believe a single bball player under Coach Smith could ever be accused of such a thing?
I can not wait for this game tomorrow. Cheaters peace nice knowing ya, you are no longing a part of the UNC family. Guys what is done is done, lets start talking about the game tomorrow.
Who cares what they did, how they did it, or why they did it. The fact is they were caught, and now we get to see the true strength of Butch’s program, his depth that he has brought in.
If UNC is ever do for a surprising win, tomorrow night is the game. How would all the ABCers feel if we actual won this game.
Can we please start discussing whats on the field…. Pipe dream I know
^i’ll be ready for tomorrow’s game.
^^do they not have a sports psychology class anymore? i took one there in the mid 80s.
“i think the answer to future problems is a revamped prevention program and revamped governance process in the athletics dept”
I am all for this if it can be shown that the current academic support program is missing an important piece. But I am doubtful that is the case. What exactly can be accomplished in a ” cheating prevention program” beyond saying “don’t cheat” in a hundred different ways? Are we going to put up “be cool, don’t cheat” signs around the locker room? To me it sounds like one of those safe driving classes they send you to if you get a ticket. Or DARE classes in 5th grade. Do these programs actually do any good, or do they just exist because, since there is a problem, we have to come up with an solution just to say “somthing has been done”?
I think that all college sports fans are complicit to this situation because we are the ones who make “student-athletes” famous and make college sports a lucrative enterprise. We try to justify the situation by saying that athletes should honor the rules and the university, but that is a pretty thin veneer for the rampant money-grubbing and fame-factory that is the NCAA and college sports. From the perspective of an athlete, you see all of this greed going on around you, yet you are told to remain pure and be a student and spend untold hours doing academic work that is totally pointless for your future. Yet it is all necessary to keeping up the ridiculous charade that high-profile college sports has become. And yet some of us remain shocked, just shocked, when some athletes decide not to play this game.
It comes down to this. If you want to be able to watch a team that represents your chosen academic institution on ESPN, this kind of scandal is the occassional price. Will there ever be a women’s lacrosse cheating scandal? No. Why? Because there is no money or fame in it. And who decides what sports generate money and fame? We do.
I want one or more of these senior leaders to come out and apologize for the stupid things that have gone on this offseason. I am tired of seeing these guys walking around laughing and smiling and acting like nothing is wrong. Did they really think the administration was going to just let them play after all the info started coming out. Austin acted surprised and pissed earlier this week when he must have been told he was not playing. If these guys have any character, they would say they screwed up and tried to take a shortcut but got caught and will now do whatever it takes to help the program recover from this mess.
nathan –
I agree that signs in the locker room won’t do the trick. The determination to stay clean has to be there on the day the athlete matriculates. That means it’s a job for the parents. The most vigilant enforcement program in the world is no substitute for character, and if the kid comes to school thinking that cheating is an option if the payoff is high enough, it’s already too late.
I disagree with the view that the fans are responsible. Are they also responsible for the great majority of athletes who DON’T cheat? That fandom creates big money, and big money creates tempation, is beside the point. The key here is the ability to RESIST temptation, and that does not come from the fan base.
Nor is the temptation to cheat to get a better grade limited to people in the sports program. We all had the same temptation, and most of us resisted it.
Someone mentioned here (I think it was william) that you didn’t have to monitor Tyler Hansbrough. Yet money and fame were more realistically on the table for him than for 99% of those in our scholarship program. He stayed clean because he had a clean character.
We can look around all we care to for others to blame, and it may come to pass that there are, in fact, others who should bear some blame. But there’s no use trying to elide the central fact: Plagiarism is obvious cheating, and the person primarily to blame for it is the one who does it.
Half of me wants to think that everything is going to be fine, that most of these guys didn’t do anything wrong and it’s just a precaution. The other half wants to see these guys kicked out of the program, if not the school for bringing disgrace onto our football program and University.
This sucks.
This is the most embarrassing scandal in UNC sports in 50 years.
As I’ve said in another post on another topic, I think fans of schools regardless of UNC, Nebraska, Dook, NC State, Texas, Florida, (insert another school here) would be shocked at how often this happens at their school. It happened at the D-II school I attended, and you KNOW it goes on everywhere else.
But that doesn’t make it okay.
There are several breakdowns here. Some of you might be offended here, but oh well.
FIRST BREAKDOWN-Any student athlete that cheated. This is kindergarten stuff. There’s right vs wrong, you know the difference. Go to class, do your own work, try your hardest.
SECOND BREAKDOWN-UNC Coaching Staff. Should Butch have to go job hunting next year? That remains to be seen. I lean to yes. You don’t know that there’s practically a racket going on in your program with a tutor that worked for you doing homework for your players?
THIRD BREAKDOWN-UNC (or any other university) “Academic Support” Department. The main goal of these departments is to make sure that, above all else, these kids remain eligible. Not getting a quality education, but just eligible. Setting low standards for students/student athletes is only asking for trouble. Making sure you’re just “eligible” is inviting cutting more corners for people who like to cut corners. Don’t we already have problems in our public schools with setting low expectations?
I want to see UNC win as much as the next true Tar Heel fan, but I would much rather see a program with integrity and high standards. U$C won and won big, but they’ve been crooked. Pete Carroll’s tenure proved that, and kids not even associated with that are paying the price.
Finally, I’d like to point out the hypocrisy of the NCAA. Once again, not saying that I think that these players should play, but they just gave the all clear to a felon to line up under center at Mississippi. It’s already been established that the UNC kids have to pay the price, but you’re letting someone who admitted to burglary (Jeramaiah Masoli) dodge disciplinary rules to transfer to Ole Miss from Oregon. Shameful.
CARTER and STURDIVANT are cleared to play tomorrow. We are back in the game now.
I think (as somebody who’s taught college athletes) that a major change is needed. The problem is systemic. The existing system encourages major-sport athletes to be cynical about their studies; they couldn’t be more cynical than those who are allegedly mentoring them.
To follow a line of thinking rathskeller introduced…..suppose a kid could major in, let’s call it something like “sports: pro-track”–
if that kid got credit for their major-sport related activities, and was required to take certain courses designed to prepare one for the life of a pro athlete; courses designed also to prepare one for the AFTER part of said life and the peculiar challenges it poses, given the brevity of the average pro sports career; courses designed with the knowledge that many of the pro-track kids would not have pro careers at all–
if such a major existed, it would be a good thing. It would mean that sham majors, fake college students, were no longer endemic at large universities. It would at least begin to acknowledge the actual reason these kids were present on college campuses. (Next step, paying them….)
And since big schools aren’t going to give up the money, and a minor league/European alternative for football seems impossible, I think it’s the only possible solution to the current exploitation of college football players.