Note: I accidentally un-published this piece some time very early this morning which explains why it disappeared. Carry on.
UNC announced that WR Greg Little and DE Robert Quinn have both been declared permenatnly ineligible by the NCAA. Also, Marvin Austin has been dismissed from the team, also for NCAA violations.
University of North Carolina football student-athletes Greg Little and Robert Quinn are permanently ineligible, according to a decision today by the NCAA student-athlete reinstatement staff. The university declared both student-athletes ineligible for violations of NCAA agent benefits, preferential treatment and ethical conduct rules. According to the facts submitted by the university, the total value of the benefits is approximately $4,952 for Little and $5,642 for Quinn.
Little accepted diamond earrings, as well as travel accommodations for the Bahamas, Washington D.C. and two trips to Miami, among other benefits. Quinn accepted two black diamond watches, a pair of matching earrings and travel accommodations for a trip to Miami, among other benefits.
Based upon information gathered by the institution and the NCAA Agent, Gambling and Amateurism staff during its joint investigation, unethical conduct charges were found against both student-athletes for providing false and misleading information. According to the facts submitted by the university, each student-athlete was not truthful during three separate interviews with university and NCAA enforcement staff members. Further, Little and Quinn only provided more accurate information when presented with evidence that was contrary to their assertions.
In other words, Greg Little and Robert Quinn lied to the investigators and apparently were really bad at it. However, given the egregious nature of the improper benefits the NCAA was going to throw the book at them anyway, the ethical conduct charge made it easier to toss them altogether. UNC actually applied for both Little and Quinn to be reinstated but the NCAA instead ended their eligibility.
In the case of Marvin Austin, it was determined he also violated the same NCAA rules. According to Dick Baddour, Austin took between $10-13,000 in extra benefits. Given the nature of his violations and the fact he was already suspended, UNC dispensed with the reinstatement process and dismissed Austin.
Here is Dick Baddour’s statement and he rightly puts the blame where it belongs, squarely on the players themselves:
“It’s a sad day when three young men are no longer able to represent their school based on actions they have taken and decisions they have made contrary to NCAA rules. Unfortunately, they made serious mistakes in judgment in accepting extra benefits and then not being truthful with our staff and NCAA representatives. Now they must forfeit the privilege of playing again for the Tar Heels. Although they are responsible for their actions, they are part of our university and our program and we will support them as they move into the next phases of their lives. I know they love to play the game, but I hope they will learn from their mistakes and lead productive and responsible careers.”
In his press conference, Baddour said there is no evidence the benefits in question came from John Blake. Baddour also said UNC has a strong compliance but needs to do more. He admits there’s”a lot of smoke” around the program but vowed to fight any “institutional control” issues. Good luck with that, champ.
Butch Davis also addressed the media and apologized profusely to everyone with a hint of blue on them. Yes, Smurfs too. Davis vowed to do better, restore confidence, yada, yada, yada. Davis also said players will have to sign out prior to leaving for which I assume will be more effective if players admit they are going to an agent party as their reason for leaving. I think Davis and Baddour need to stop with the “we are going to do better” line. It rings hollow at this point. You have multiple players not just accepting a hotel room or a pair of shoes but rather diamond watches and expensive trips. I am not sure the “we have strong compliance but we need to do better and doggone we are going to fix this” is going to cut it anymore. With this kind of business going on, I think the people who care are going to want to see some blood on the altar.
Unlike Deunta Williams’ situation which I thought was more about the NCAA being draconian, there is no excuses to be made for these three. I know people talk about paying players as a way to cure this ill but you cannot reconcile receiving thousands of dollars in elaborate gifts with the notion of providing money for basic needs. This was egregious behavior and monumentally stupid. Like my children often do these compounded one sin with the sin of lying which, in my house, tends to ratchet up the level of discipline they receive. The NCAA looks at it the same way.
In my opinion, the NCAA does have a role when it comes to policing basic amateurism and ensuring recruiting happens on a fairly level playing field. To accept the kinds of gifts these three received is a clear violation and the NCAA is well within their rights to declare them ineligible. In Williams’ case he was not intending to break rules. He was visiting a friend and routine items were deemed NCAA violations. Accepting expensive gifts and trips from what we can assume were from agents is completely inappropriate and now they must pay the price. Unfortunately not just them, their teammates as well. As Baddour noted, they made serious mistakes in judgment. Among 18-22 year old adults this happens all the time.
Let me also point out that, again, no one knows anything about this case outside of UNC and the NCAA. The supposed insiders on the message boards who have been preaching “peace and safety” about this whole scandal have once again been proven wholly inaccurate. One rumor out there from August said Little was cleared on the agent angle. Quinn’s name was hardly mentioned until UNC pulled him before LSU. What’s more, some UNC fans keep holding to the notion that this is all going to blow over with minimal penalty for the program itself. With these revelations bringing the count of players accepting improper benefits to five and the latter three on an egregious level, I do not see how the program escapes harm.
The one silver lining, such as it is, lies in the fact we are moving towards some measure of closure where this season is concerned. Now we know Little, Austin and Quinn will not be back. No word yet on Charles Brown and Michael McAdoo. Hopefully UNC can get those two back to round out the secondary and adds some depth to the defensive line. Given what happened to Jonathan Smith I would not hold out much hope on the players being held in relation to the academic prong of which Ryan Houston is the most important. Given the way Johnny White has played and Shaun Draughn being available that is less of an issue that it was earlier in the season.
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Sad day for Tar Heel nation. On the bright side of things, at least our players aren’t beating people up and/or committing felonies. Committing stupidity is a more relevant charge in terms of $5,000 versus the possible 7 figure money these guys had in the future.
Lying is probably the worst offense of all.
THF your comments about the internet boards couldn’t be more true. It’s funny to see certain sites that dwell on innuendo/rumor and write in a manner that gives them a 50% chance of being right. Then they pat themselves on the back for being the “first to report this”.
There must be something wrong with my calendar because it says today is Monday, but based on that breaking news it must really be Thursday already. Time flies…
^Nope, I’m in PA this week, that’s when the really bad stuff comes out. Newsflash: I’m going to be traveling to PA quite a bit this year, I apologize to all the readers of the blog for travel and the affect it is having on the program and our lives.
Just checked in and turned on Sports Center only to be greeted with Marvin Austin’s statement. Thanks guys and thank you Dickie and Butch. I’m going to keep holding my breath until the sweet embrace of death ends my suffering on this issue. If you are obstructing the process then you are a dead man, I’m stunned that when they were caught they kept up the act. Either you don’t say anything or tell all, there’s no middle ground kids.
The NCAA can do what it wants but I’m hopeful that we get the remaining players back and on the field. This is a train wreck of monumental levels for the the guys let on the field and the recruits we have in waiting. My heart goes out to the players, that stayed clean, as they are the ones doing the hard work on the field.
You can tell that UNC’s main goal is to do everything possible not to lose future scholarships. If that happens, its a wrap for the football team.
these are the growing pangs of a program trying to get to the next level……so be it. everybody take a breath, relax, we will get through this and be even better on the other side with Butch D!!!!!!!!!!
^That’s ludicrous. BGGD has GOT to go. Now. Damn waiting for the end of the season. He’s the captain of this ship, this mess is ultimately his responsibility. Other schools have gone to the next level without these asinine “growing pangs”, UNX could have as well.
actually UNC almost reached the next level in 97-98, but then we let Mack Brown go to Texas, and have been cursed ever since……
Butch Davis is not going to survive. I just do not see how. You have five players who committed NCAA violations, three of which did so with high dollar amount gifts. You have two more who have yet to have their fate decided then the whole academic scandal. Not to mention whatever the heck the NCAA decides to do about John Blake. Time to wake up and smell the coffee.
^yeah, all the pro-Butch stuff coming from Baddour or Thorp right now means nothing at all come spring. nothing.
As bad as it is getting, I am still glad to see at least some partial resolutions. I agree that unless Butch Davis is immersed in teflon his days at UNC are indeed numbered. I want a final resolution that is the best case for this University and will accept whatever that turns out to be.
Go Heels!!
It’s a damned fine mess you’ve made for us now Ollie, er… Butch!
I said when this first got started Davis needs to go. These things don’t get any better. I still say the worst of all of this, is the tutor. The reputation of our great university is at stake. Get rid of Davis and hire some elder statesmen to run the program the rest of the year. Don McCauley, Harris Barton, the reputable names are endless.
so who do you replace BD with. some of you folks are way tooooo quick to pull triggers. almost every national champ program has had these difficulties. this goes with the territory. there are noooooooooo squeaky clean programs out there as long as NCAA makes billions, colleges make millions, and students get free classes…….hmmmm
Are these people trying to ruin every day of the week? Really.
^^Bring back Bunting for all I care. Dude was a clown, but he was a clean clown and he loved the University. I’m guessing you think it’s okay to use IEDs to win the war on terror because the other side does it, too. The basketball program is a top 3 all time program, and they did it clean. Why should the football team be any different?
i never said football couldnt be clean;however, it is alot easier to monitor 15 guys on a basketball team than 80 on a football team. and sorry i dont want bunting back. i say relax, we will survive and thrive again.
“almost every national champ program has had these difficulties.”
Please fill me in, because I must be missing something here – when exactly did Butch Davis bring a national championship to UNC? All I’ve seen the last 4 years are 4 losses in a row to (unranked) rivals, no more then 8 wins in a single season and consecutive losses in some 3rd tier bowl game. The University is supposed to piss away its reputation for that?
I agree, we will survive and thrive again…after we deal with the fallout from BGGD’s mess and the loss of schollies that will come with it. And we will be BGGD-less when the thriving starts. I don’t want Bunting back either, but losing with him is a damn sight better than this current imbroglio. I will relax when that idiot Baddour and his monkey BGGD are gone, and not until then.
you say losing with bunting is ok now, but when he was here and we were looking pathetic, many like you were hollering that this school ought to be better and ought to get higher caliber recruits. you folks want chicken salad yet dont want to see how its made…….grow up!!!!!!
Very simply would you prefer Bunting and a clean program versus Butch and the mess we have now. Bunting loves this university. Butch is here only until he gets a higher offer and his son finishes high school.
i say let butch run with it as far as possible. we are getting top quality athletes. this year proves this because of the depth that we have. i totally expected agents(leeches etc) to come a callin. lets not throw the baby out with the water. butch will be that sqeaky clean program from here on out and we can still get the top recruits. my only drawback is that he insist on riding the last remnant of john bunting (TJ Yates) til the wheels fall off.
“Very simply would you prefer Bunting and a clean program versus Butch and the mess we have now.”
If you think those are the only two options available to the new UNC AD and hiring committee, you’re nuts.
A few things:
1) I did think the school could have done better than Bunting as a coach. I love JB, there isn’t a guy out there that wants his school to do better than him, he just isn’t a good head coach. HOWEVER, I don’t see cheating ****** BGGD as a step up in any way from JB.
2) I know perfectly well how top notch programs are made, and many, if not most of them, do it SANS CHEATING. Period, end of argument on that one.
3) Yates has been great this season, except for some semi-poor play this past Saturday (in a win), and yet you want him out because he’s a hold over from the JB era. Who, exactly, is throwing the baby out with the bath water?
4) What evidence do you have that tells you BGGD will run a clean ship from here on out? Dickie and BGGD are both done at the end of the season. To think otherwise is foolish.
I would just love to ask these guys if it was worth it. The best these guys can do now is to hook up with the UFL or something like that to get to an NFL stepping stone.
Time for the housecleaning to begin. Say goodbye to all the coaching staff after this mess. Of course with our luck, John Shoop will be the next head coach at UNC……
The sanctions we get will depend on the type of coach we can land. I can’t see a big name coach wanting to come to UNC if there’s a huge postseason ban, loss of scholarships, etc, etc, etc. So while Bunting ruined us with incompetence, Davis did us in by not knowing what the hell was going on with his players or his coaches.
Sad day for Tar Heel nation; while I still say that this is happening EVERYWHERE and it just depends on how your program covers stuff up, it’s time to rebuild…..again.
Thank the Lord basketball season starts soon.
yates has suprised many of us except for the last game when that old lovin feelin returned……overthrowing guys right in front of him, missing passes badly….you remember that lovin feelin dontcha. now i certainly hope it was just a bad game. saturday will tell. PS next year we have a Darian durant type stud QB comin in….you do remember Durant dontcha? and who recruited this stud……..wasnt JB……BD
Who recruited Austin, Little, Quinn, and Smith? Oh, that’s right…
do you honestly feel that BD condoned these players receiving these benefits. and do you honestly feel that he could have stopped it. I have 2 kids and i cant even watch them that much to insure they never screw up…..must less 80 hormone driven young men bedazzled by all the money , drugs, and women they could ever want.
i dont know if you have kids, but if they screw up, should you be jailed for what they did……would you be jailed……NOT
gregrustin: No. I don’t think he could have stopped it. USC had to hire 10-15 compliance officers after they were done with the Bush madness, so that’s probably going to be the next thing we do to get into the NCAA’s good graces. It’s a new day for CFB, two or three compliance officers won’t cut it anymore.
That being said, Butch still going to hand in his resignation in 3 1/2 months though, followed closely by Baddour. Which is a shame, because I really do think they were both blindsided by this to some extent.
so we hire compliance officers to babysit…….you might as well hire foxxes to watch the hens. as long as the NCAA makes billions, and the schools make millions while the kids get to go to class…..forget it.
smallandpetty–you are a bit harsh here. almost seems as if you have an agenda to be rid of butch. can you provide evidence that butch himself is involved and condones cheating? its laughable that you want a clean program that doesn’t win considering what the economics are at stake here. if you think that there are not shenanigans in other programs you are not as worldly as you speak. as much as it pains me to say, cheating and impropriety goes on in every business–even churches (I know i used to be on a board of directors for a methodist church and i can tell you horror stories. i really think that what butch is a ceo of a business with about 150-200 FTEs. there is no way to police what these guys do in their off time. in fact during the off season when most of this occurred, the coaches are prohibited from contacting the athletes. its up to the kids to make good decisions and if you look at the american culture, its easy to see why things are like they are (check out a rap video some time). you can blame butch and company for recruiting them and not mentoring them better but at the end of the day its about individual responsibility.
tarheelfan–i understand your point and you may be right but i actually dont think they get rid of either of them yet. see below:
i think this represents a huge opportunity for the university and butch and dickie to build a championship program the right way. unlike pete carroll who bolted at the first sniff of ncaa trouble and his athletic director who didnt get it, these guys understand the deal and can truthfully go an operate under the new stricter ncaa. when i watched the press conference, i saw two men who are determined to do this. we may be the first but will not be the last in this type of investigation…
worse part is they lied to them, but i agree with gregrustin
oh and there is a group of past college players suing the ncaa
for using their names and making millions off of games like NCAA football ect..and you know what? they have a very good case,it is not fair for the ncaa to punish these kids for recieving evn 20,000 dollars while they sit back and rake in the big bucks using their name images or whatever, however untill the rules are changed we cant do anything about it, i just wished they hadnt lied about it, and as far as Bd and DB goes i dont think they should get fired over this mess, let me repeat,THEY DID NOT
KNOW NOR COULD THEY HAVE STOPPED THIS, these kids are grown and make their own choices, and for people to say that coach davis is at fault just because he is the coach is just ludicrus. DB was right, put the blame where it belongs on the players who did this and stop this crap about firing everyone
its just plain stupid, whos to say the next coach it want happen again? and how can the next coach prevent it? well i can tell you that he nor the school cannot prevent this if the player decides to do it, think about what i just said and honestly tell me that BD and DB must go.
The bottom line is that BGGD is responsible for his program. This isn’t one or two kids being bad apples, it’s 12-13 kids, an assistant coach, and a tutor. Yes, I have a child, but I don’t get paid more than a mil to make sure my kid stays out of trouble. A huge part of a head coach’s job is to make sure that his program is run clean, or otherwise face the consequences from the school and the NCAA. The buck, so to speak, stops with the HC. Stop making excuses for the man and realize that he screwed the pooch, knowingly or not. He has to go. If he knew, he’s obviously dirty, if he didn’t he doesn’t deserve a position of power. We’re not talking bench warmers cheating on tests and knocking up cheerleaders, we’re talking about starters and future NFL players, very high profile guys, taking extravagant gifts and trips. Don’t tell me he couldn’t have known. Get your head out of the sand, you’re making the rest of us look bad by making excuses for this idiot.
unc23, BGGD and Dickie must go. And NCAA video games do not use player’s names, only their numbers.
gregrustin and unc23heel:
I would like to point out that this wasn’t the case of just one or two players breaking the rules. Austin, Little, Quinn, Burney, Searcy, etc, etc, etc were ALL caught with their hands in the collective cookie jars. Also, there’s an academic issue going on as well. So maybe Butch didn’t condone the act, but he still had numerous players that were breaking rules. If that’s not a lack of institutional control, then I’d hate to see what is.
And unc23heel, the case has been made about the NCAA using their likeness for video games and everything, but you have rules on the books that have to be followed. People break rules and laws always beginning with the rationalization that someone else wronged them first. Unfortunately, it doesn’t matter. As long as the rule is on the books, breaking it gets you in trouble. So while the players are responsible, we also have a coach that had no clue what his players….and one of his own coaches was doing. Once again, one or two players isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but players numbering in the double digits on two scandals is pretty bad.
No manager or head of a company would survive this, and they shouldn’t. Butch and co have to go, plain and simple.
well your entitled to ur opinion, but for you to say he had to have known what each player was doing on a sat night or even where they were at is rediculas, blame this on the players
they made the choice not BD or DB, whats he supose to do? andy i see what ur saying there but still the players were well aware of the rules yet what you say is true but i dont agree with it, as it isnt fair
keep them locked up on the weekend? get real. these players have embarresed unc not the coach or AD. and my head isnt in the sand either, and whoevr i make look bad with my opinion is just tuff crap, i dont care, everyone is entitled to their opinion
and please spare me about making everyone here look bad, we all look bad as unc fans because of what the PLAYERS chose to do.
i will say that if its found he did something wrong then yes Fire him right now today, no arguing there, im done with this
bickering over whos fault it is ect..i dont care anymore
He did do something wrong: he did not exercise the control over his program that was expected of him as head coach. He hired Blake, a coach who had a rep as a dirty guy well before he came to UNX. He “didn’t notice” more than a few of his VERY TOP PLAYERS taking expensive trips and wearing new diamond jewelry, nor did he question them about it if he did notice. He had more than 10 players get caught up in an academic scandal, something no other coach in any sports program at UNX has EVER had happen. I don’t care how many games he’s won, he has brought bad news to Carolina. He has opened Pandora’s box for all of those ABCers out there and given them actual real sh*t to talk about the school I love, and he has left me with no valid comeback to that sh*t talk. He has sullied the good name of Carolina, whether intentionally or not.
It’s called accountability. Someone has to go down for this mess and it is going to be Butch Davis. It is also a PR issue. We are not talking about one issue or two issues, this is multi-faceted. Let’s review:
-Three players dismissed entirely for NCAA violations with included lying and accepting combined benefits of over $20,000.
-Two players suspended at least four games for accepting improper benefits.
-One player lost for the season due to academic misconduct
-Seven players currently being held out and investigated for academic misconduct.
-John Blake, whose name ain’t the best in college football, resigns when it was about to break he was making a phone call per day to a known sports agent. Blake also had a habit of calling players from other schools and there is evidence he accepted money from an agent. Yeah, he was friends with the agent, watch and see if the NCAA gives a crap.
It is the sheer number of issues involved happening all at the same time that makes it difficult for Davis to survive. Platitudes and public rationalizations start to ring hollow when you have five players held in violations of NCAA rules. I can sit here and make a good case Butch Davis is not directly involved in any of these situations. I can also rationalize much of what went on with John Blake. It doesn’t matter. Davis is in charge of the program. When you have this many issues on his watch there is really not much choice in what happens next.
UNC has taken a huge PR hit and to continue on with Butch Davis basically says they don’t have any integrity and it is okay to have these kinds of violations in the program.
Please tell me what BGGD and UNX refer to.
Larry – I think UNX is a typo – the X is right next to the C on the keyboard. I think BGGD is Butch Davis, but I don’t know what the GG stands for; it’s probably not a compliment.
UNX is a dig at State fans. It’s a “typo” that they run with on their message boards that I have embraced, and added to (NXSU, EXU, etc), just to irk those smug chumps. It is actually supposed to be BGDD, but I’ve been pumped full of fentanyl and ketamine today and can’t quite get my thoughts in order the way I would like when I type. The GD stands for exactly what you think it stands for. He quit being BMFD as soon as all of this nonsense was made public (in my eyes, at least).
No one but State fans actually use the “UNX” intentional typo. They do it because they think it would pronounced “eunuchs”, which is what they would like to believe is the, er, procreative status… of all UNC players and fans. No one should be fooled by anyone who throws the “UNX” thing around out here — that pretty much tells you you’ve got a State fan in disguise (aren’t they so cute?) there.
I never understood why we care about college football, all this for nothing… Little and Austin were so overrated on the field im glad their gone, but way to take the team down with you. UNC is and will always be a basketball school, season starts in NOV, Friday is late night, Football is a lost cause, that is giving fuel for the ABCers,
^^ORLY?! THF can tell you all about me, and I promise you there is no State fan in me. Not even a little bit. I’ve been a thorn in NXSU fan’s side for more than a minute around these parts and I will continue to be one way after BGDD and Dickie are gone, after Roy retires, and after TH finishes being better than Blake in the Association. Nice try, Johnny, but you must not be from ’round these parts. I’m an OG (in the vernacular) and I’ve been repping UNX for 32 years. Now, please reconsider your ignorance and recognize a UNX grad when you see one (post on a blog). That is all.
Brian, educate this fool, please.
Im not ready to lump Smith in with the permanently ineligible crew. Someone has to explain to me how a senior will still have a year of eligibility left if he lost this year. Sounds more like he deferred eligibility to a year when he could play a whole year, without DW and DS entrenched in front of him. I dont think the NCAA will let you make up lost time the next year, right?
Am I the only one here that thinks we sould keep Coach Davis?
I sure hope not.
uncgirl50, You are not the only one.
^Thank goodness.
^You many not be alone in number but by the percentages you are way low on the scale. They have to keep repeating, “stay the course”, presently. Until we and UNC know the scope of the problem there is no way to bring in someone else as HC. Plus you lose all the recruits. At this point I would think that once we get closer to the final punishment nearing the end of the season we will get Nienas (sp) back on the phone looking for a HC. The bigger question would be the AD. Just how do you go about that, I vote Coach Gut for the job.
smallandpettypat is no State fan. Not even close.
As for Butch Davis’ chances, I think it was Lyndon Johnson who said, “If you have lost smallandpettypat, you have lost most of Tar Heel Nation.”
uncgirl50 i think us two are about the only ones who think that here, seems most here think either he has to go or it is inevitable at least. coach davis seems to have some support though over at inside carolina forums, check it out, “the tar pit”
Yeah because the IC message boards are a bastion of sanity and level headed thinking about these issues.
Just in case I wasn’t clear. At this point, I think Coach Davis should be the head coach well into the future.
OK. It is time to move on to other things. Like the final roster of the Men’s Varsity Basketball team. There will be one this year right?
unc23heel, will do. I started a thread over there a while back, before it got really bad, about supporting Coach Davis. Try doing what I did and call, email, or write to the athletics office, they told me they really appreciate actual support.
unc23heel, mseawell, and I are awesome. Just so y’all know.
And while there are many who share that opinion, I just don’t think it acknowledges the present reality or considers what is likely coming down the pipe from the NCAA. The problem for UNC is attracting a new coach would be difficult without knowing the cards and the NCAA may not deal them until next summer. So there is a chance UNC keeps Davis around until something concrete is known about the future of the program.
There is also the possibility Butch Davis takes another job on his own and UNC will not do anything to stop him.
If BGDD has any honor at all he will resign and allow UNX to move forward without any further scandal over our collective heads. Dickie won’t be so honorable, he will have to be dragged kicking and screaming out of his plush office and deposited in the street unceremoniously.
Count Deems May with you as well, uncgirl50.
THF, I acknowledge that you could be 100% correct. But I still think that we are better off with him as the head coach now and in the future.
^Why?
I think THF about has this one nailed, both on whether BD should have to go, and as to whether he will in fact go.
How do you have two of your big deal players prancing around town in diamond earrings and a diamond watch and not notice? And since when are all these plane trips to fancy parties necessary? These guys are, what, 20+, and they can afford stuff like that??? Was there not a single member of the coaching staff who noticed?
And don’t say that’s how kids are these days. It most certainly is NOT how they are. There are precious few men of any age wearing diamond jewelry, and with few exceptions, students don’t road trip on a jet.
My nephew at Dook thinks a “road trip” is driving to Charlotte with his buddies to see a rock concert or a Panthers game. And he’s from a well-off family.
The money-grubbing is bad enough (and as one astute commenter has noted, this is fancy jewelry, not Jan Valjean’s loaf of bread). Combined with the apparently quite widespread academic cheating, what we have here is a moral swamp.
Personally, I like what I see of Butch Davis. I give him credit for keeping the team together and believing in itself through this nightmarish season. These are not small accomplishments. But there’s just too much, and the excuses have worn threadbare.
I wish it were otherwise. It ain’t.
Rath, as for the diamond jewelry, Deunta Williams was asked about that and he said he never saw those guys wearing them, didn’t even know they had them. So, it’s not a stretch to think the coaches didn’t know either. Otherwise, your points are well taken.
we supporters just think hes the right man for the job, coaching and i really think he will put things in place to keep this from happening again, also i dont see where it does anygood at all
to fire the man because its not gonna do anything, in fact i think it would hurt more then help. i think we as diehard unc fans feel like were perfect and allways have been forever ect..
people make mistakes, best thing to do now is learn from them
and strive to be better then we were before, i bet you a million bucks if this was roy williams, no one i mean no one would be
even mentioning firing him, i will support unc with whatever they do though
mseawell, let me go deeper with my question. What is the difference between JB, who lost but did it honorably and with tons of love for our university, and BGDD, who has won but has also ruined a season in which UNX could have been in Charlotte for the ACCCG, or even competing for the MNC if the chips fell in the right spots? JB was a laughing stock, but he was a laughing stock that we, as UNX fans, could be damn proud of. BGDD is a laughing stock that reflects horribly on us as UNX fans, who has brought shame to the previously untouchable UNX, who has given ABCers across the universe actual real ammunition in their never ending quest to hate on UNX. There was never, ever, in the entire history of UNX any scandal, academic or otherwise, that had any solid, factual basis at all whatsoever until BGDD slithered into town. And he’s not even an alum. He’s a mercenary that will go somewhere else solely for the almighty dollar when it is offered. Well, sooner than it is offered, now that he has been dragged into the muck and the mire by this scandal.
Thank you unc23heel. You said it better than I could have.
smallandpetty–you are entitled to your opinion. but look in the mirror. what fuels the ABC’rs are folks who are what i call Carolina Righteous. We as a fan nation have looked down our noses at the fans from Moo U (EZU and others) and said we do it clean, etc. so we are better than you. We set this feeding frenzy up with our own words and actions. We are now feeling what many of our athletes have felt on the field for years. Look at what you and THF are on here saying–”Butch needs to go”. Do you realize that this ends up perpetuating the hurt to the program by you publicly pushing this agenda. It plays into the hands of the ABC’rs. Sometimes its better to say nothing and know you are right or wrong because it serves a greater good.
Butch is not perfect. Nobody is but he is a CEO type and has done more positive than negative in my opinion (which is different from yours). Having been through the Bunting and Torbush experiments, where there were more aluminium than real fans it is awesome to see the Carolina Blue in BKS. I noticed that for both ECU and Clemson (both teams that travel well), the number of enemy fans was small compared to what it was in the past (do you remember when Marshall came to town?)
(One positive: I dohave 10 FedEx Carolina Football T-shirts from the bunting era that I got for free–because no one was there).
I have worked in the executive suite before, I know for a fact that unless you are Richard Nixon (who spied on everyone), there is no way to control and/or know what is going on with all of your employees (or in this case players). Working for someone who is trying to control everyone creates an atmosphere of more chaos and rebellion against the system than that of less control. I know first hand and can tell you stories for days.
Are you gong to call Roy incompetent or out of control because he lost 3 of 12 (25%) of his scholarship players to either transfer or rules violations since the end of the season? The 12-13 represent 15% of the team. Hmmm, seems like there is more of a problem in basketball. Blake–well based on what I hear, he fooled everyone. Now if it comes out that Blake was paying students,that’s takes this to another place. But for now we don’t know that and DB said today the NCAA had no evidence of Blake paying these kids.
Life is not black and white, let me ask you: if you were sitting in his seat would you want people judging you based on partial truths? If you are told that you suck by your boss and s/he is going to fire you (or even better put you on a performance improvement plan), would you want your co-workers to go around saying you were incompetent and continue to hurt your efforts to be a professional and do a good job? Have your opinion. I’ll have mine. Think about who all you hurt before hitting submit comment (this goes for all here including THF and Doc–I hope we are on the same team here). If not we are only feeding the enemy.
smallandpettypat, Hey I liked JB for all the reasons you mentioned, I really wanted him to be successful.
As for Butch Davis giving the ABC’er ammunition. I’m don’t talk smack never have never will. So what the ABCer’s think or do really doesn’t matter to me. I could care less.
You may be right Butch Davis may have intended to jump on the first better opportunity that came along, even prior the the current situation. I personally have no idea.
BGDD recruited the problems, was the HC and presided over the program while the problems were attracting the attention of the NCAA through their shady actions, brought the tutor who is at the heart of the ONLY academic scandal in the history of UNX athletics on board, and hired John “Black Santa” Blake. How in the world, in light of all of these things, can you stand behind him as the “right man for the job”? Hell, he hasn’t even beaten State or won a bowl game yet. What in the blue hell do you see in this man that makes you support him so fully? What, he won more games than JB? So did Carl Torbush and I don’t see you fools jumping up to support that loser. Mack Brown brought UNX to prominence and did it WITHOUT A HINT OF SCANDAL, so why is this crap acceptable? Just because UNX is winning and you want to think of it as OK you explain it away by saying that “everyone else does it”. Well guess what, they don’t. If they did the NCAA would be administering a whole lot more public rectal exams to prominent programs and people wouldn’t see these “problems” as big news. I’m not one to be down on fellow UNX fans, but you guys are absolutely sickening with your sycophancy. Pull your heads out of your posteriors and recognize that there are serious problems at our school and they are ALL related to BGDD.
“Mack Brown brought UNX to prominence and did it WITHOUT A HINT OF SCANDAL”
I don’t know if that statement is completely accurate. If I remember correctly some of the players in Mack Brown’s later years had less than stellar reputations. Again if I remember correctly, comments were made to the fact that in order to get the athletes needed to be a big time college football program you had to lower your standards.
Okay since you are going to obtuse about it then name the specific NCAA violations which occurred in the ten years under Mack Brown. Tell me when the investigation into academic infractions occurred. Show me where Mack Brown hired a questionable assistant coach who was known to be shady and connected to an agent, the same agent that paid for a player to travel to CA. Because I am looking at four years of Butch Davis, an around .500 record, at least five violations and possibly more to come.
Unless you can come with proof of NCAA investigations beat it. Okay, some players had legal troubles. They were academic qualifiers and they were never investigated by the NCAA. There have NEVER, in the history of UNX athletics, been any real, actual troubles until BGDD showed up on campus. Period. This is not some opinion that is up for argument, this is actual factual data that is beyond reproach.
rath and others re cheating:
1. research indicates that across all students in a university setting 75-90% admit to cheating–this doesn’t sound like its a problem that butch brought in with butch.
2. the tutor program is administered by the college of arts and sciences and has nothing to do with the athletic administration. this is on purpose to keep the academics at a higher level than in other institutions.
don’t think you can pine 1 or 2 on the football staff. when are you going to understand that the choice to cheat (or take improper benefits) or not is not made by Butch Davis but by the student? the students messed up and no coach, enforcement officer or administrator could have changed that. the kids made bad choices and created the mess not the coach.
smallpetty–talking about black santa really makes you sound like a wuffie. it would be more productive if you talked about the real black santa who wears the red blazer and his alleged giving relationship with several aau coaches.
there are problems at our school. always have been always will be. dont get me started on the ROI we get from the research dollars spent at UNC–i will wear you out about problems that really matter. you need to get out of your ivory tower and understand that you are living in a glass house where the glass will never be rebuilt with glass again. you may not like it but being brought down several notches provides the opportunity for those who are here to make things better if they chose to do so.
one question: if we go back to bunting, how do you propose paying for new kenan and the non-revenue olympic sports?
smallandpettypat
October 12, 2010 at 12:39 am
“There have NEVER, in the history of UNX athletics, been any real, actual troubles until BGDD showed up on campus. Period”
not true: see basketball in the early 1960′s.
i hate to bring you down but we are not perfect and will never be. i dont want us to be because it fuels the ABC fire…
Guys I’m not trying to be combative. If I’m coming across that way I apologize. No there were no NCAA investigations that I know of or heard of. But there were some off the field troubles makers that just as you alluded to, “Okay, some players had legal troubles.” Those type of things can also tarnish a schools image and did.
You’ve beat me down….uncle…
blahblahblahrationalizationblahdigats&pblahbsblah.
The new Kenan is paid for. I don’t suggest that we go back to JB, just that BGDD is no better than JB. Personally, I would like to see a coach that has something to prove come to UNX and win clean, without scandal.
TEB is not a “Black Santa”, he’s a clown in a red blazer. He’s NXSU’s bball version of JB. He’s nobody. You can do way better than that.
i could say the same about you but you are a bit hard headed–what is insulting is that for someone who supposedly loves UNC you dont listen to the other side–especially when someone brings data. did you go to unc? for some reason i dont think so.
Can you show me the evidence that new kenan is paid for? by the way they advertise for it at the games one wouldnt think so. also the last public release indicated they were about 20% of goal.
If not Butch then who? What you need to think about is that sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you dont. what are you going to think if we go back to a torbush/bunting type of coach and we have the program to go with it? did you sit through the 8 years of these experiments? Did you give tens of thousands of dollars to the RC to watch crappy football?
As for as Black and Red Santa, I hear he is very giving and that the HS coaches in state don’t like it and are making noise? Why do i need to do better than that? is that sheep cologne you are wearing to go with the sheep suit?
I stand corrected. WAY back in Rath’s day there was a little tiny whiff of scandal. Wait…eff that. This is the modern era we’re talking about, and we’re clean all the way up until BGDD brought his dirt to our doorstep. Frank McGuire improperly entertained some kid and it resulted in one of the greatest coaching tenures in all of NCAA basketball. For shame.
But, all jokes aside, you are right. However, not since Frank McGuire in 1961 has the NCAA sniffed around Chapel Hill and found anything to bang on. And this scandal puts that little imbroglio to shame.
I didn’t go to UNC, what’s your point?
For me the issue is simple. There are far too many issues dropping at the same time for me to reasonably believe Davis can survive giving the PR issues it raises not to mention the integrity.
I have heard, and processed your side. And I thoroughly reject it. I did attend, and graduate from, UNX. You don’t exactly seem to be listening to my side, but you don’t see me questioning where your loyalties lie.
The new construction will not be left uncompleted if BGDD is sent packing, and to think it will shows a woeful lack of knowledge of renovations and construction on college campuses.
I don’t know who, but neither did you or anyone else when JB was fired in the middle of the season. Nice straw man though.
I hear that the Easter Bunny got in a knife fight with a flying pig, does that make my cologne smell any different? I also hear that Santa is real and the tooth fairy and a leprechaun are running for president on the tea party ticket in a couple of years. See, anyone can make up any ridiculous claim they want to when making an argument. Does that make it any more believable? I’m sure you can do better than that.
Lots of crying going on. Keep Davis. Get rid of the fans that aren’t supporting the football team to the fullest. What’s done is done. Let the investigation play out, punishments be had, and get back to bringing in top recruits, and trying to win football games. Davis’s resiliency this season, is showing why he is a good coach. I’ve said it before, if Roy Williams players accepted money and cheated in school, no one would bat an eye, because he wins. No one on here was crying because Butch recruited a player that got kicked off the team te other day, or recruited players that couldn’t get along so bad that they had the worst season in recent history. Quit the crying and feeling sorry for yourselves and the school that you claim to care so much about and support the team
Agreed that it has been awhile. I probably wouldn’t have wanted them to fire McGuire. He was actually cleared (by the work of Dean Smith) but the NCAA came down hard anyways.
Believe it or not supporting the school and the team might also include wanting a different person at the helm on the belief the current one has failed to do his job properly. There are strong opinions on both sides of this but IMO both sides are supporting UNC football, just have different ideas about the future.
Us “fans that aren’t supporting the football team to the fullest” were here way before BGDD showed up and will still be around long after he is gone. Forgive me if I am not willing to give up my integrity for a few fleeting years of glory, DS. And you couldn’t be further from the truth when you say that I wouldn’t have anything to say about Roy if he found himself embroiled in a similar scandal. I am for my school first and wins a very distant second. If you want to ride the jock of a coach that has presided over the first serious scandal in our beloved school’s history simply because he has won a few games then so be it. You are the only one that has to live with yourself at the end of the day.
P.S. Dook uses WAY too many commas. Grammar son, you don’t has it.
“after TH finishes being better than Blake in the Association”
are you refering to Tyler being better than Blake Griffin, in the NBA.
We’ll see about that. TH will grind out a long and successful career, barring major injury. Blake has already had the length of his career shortened by a major injury and has yet to play a minute in the regular season. And he’s on a crap team that has a penchant for holding on to talent but never doing anything with them.
Fail of the year belongs to BGDD, btw. Don’t forget that.
I dont even know how to respond to that homer comment. First off Tyler is going to have a hard time being better than Tywon in the league, let only Blake Griffin.
Please stick with Butch, you are making great points, and Ill let the Tyler comment slide.
You can comment as much as you want on whatever I say. That’s pretty much the whole point of me putting my opinions out there for public consumption. TH will start for the Pacers this year, Blake will start for the Clippers, and we can watch actual NBA basketball (I know, I know, that’s a pretty big stretch for a lot of you folks out there: “The Association sucks”, “Nobody plays D”, “They’re all thugs and criminals”, “They’re only there to make a dollar, they have no loyalty to their teams” etc etc) and make determinations at the end of the season. I do know that the Pacers have a much better chance of seeing the post season than the Clippers. By the by, not being as good as Tywon doesn’t mean being bad. Lawson has been a beast and will also have a very long and successful career in the Association.
Bottom line; we don’t have a say whether Butch goes or stays other than public outcry which I truly hope is not a basis for a decision. If the NCAA presses or admits that it will go less harshly with Butch out then he’s gone. Butch could do the “I resign for the good of the program” routine and land on his feet somewhere else. Both of those are variations on the same theme. If he stays it will be because he has strong support within the school and from prominent folks in the hierarchy of the Rams Club. That could only happen if the NCAA takes a less harsh view of BD’s involvment and blesses his continued association. If he goes we will have a hard time finding a better qualified candidate in the likely aftermath. Lastly, if the decision is made to retain then we can expect a committed coach who wants to rebuild his image. This is simply one man’s opinion: nothing more, nothing less!
smallandpettypat –
“WAY back in Rath’s day there was a little tiny whiff of scandal.”
Wrongo. Back in my day, money never changed hands, as it had not been invented.
DookSux –
“I’ve said it before, if Roy Williams players accepted money and cheated in school, no one would bat an eye, because he wins.”
You have indeed said it before, and it was wrong then too.
I might also mention that there is a difference between supporting the school and turning a blind eye to behavior that brings the school into disrepute. Indeed, the two are opposites.
I absolutely refuse to believe that Butch Davis is the only coach UNC can find that can win 8 games a season and lose to NC State every damn year. We can cut ties with Butch Davis and find an equally “effective” coach. In fact, I believe we can cut ties with Butch Davis, find a coach who can win 10 or 11 games a year and win some good bowl games all without any NCAA violations on his watch. Why do I believe that? Because we did it before – his name was Mack Brown – and shame on Dick Baddour (who should also be fired) for not putting as much money on the table as was necessary in order to get Mack Brown to stay. So, go a little farther back in your UNC history… Butch Davis vs. John Bunting are NOT the only two options we have and UNC CAN have a good football program that is also clean. We’ve done it before and we’ll do it again. But before we can build our new clean and good football program first we have to get rid of the dirty and average football program we have right now, and that starts with getting rid of the guy who built it.
The unfortunate thing for Butch, if not for us all, is that apparently, this was the year that UNC was slated to win 10+ games and go to a decent bowl, perhaps even a New Year’s Day Bowl. That being said, who cares? UNC basketball fans are upset when we lose in the NCAA Final Four. Who cares about finishing in the top ten in a phony national championship “competition” where they vote a champion?
Last time I checked, true champions win on the field.
Does anybody remember Kansas winning 11 games and playing on New Year’s a couple of years ago? Barely, but yes, and now, nobody cares, even in Kansas. Kansas plays big-time basketball and even people in Kansas, ignorant as so many of them are, realize what side of the bread the butter is on.
If football is going to continue to malign the reputation of UNC, maybe it is time, UNC, Duke, UVa, Maryland, and Wake Forest look into creating a conference for everything but football.
Lastly, “Butch” is not the classiest name to have when scandal envelopes you. Dean is a classy name. Michael is not bad either, but “Butch”, not so much. Bye, bye Butch.
And until Butch leaves; to quote Norman Dale, “support who we are, not who we are not”!