Call this…well…whatever you want to call it. It was clearly one of those shake your head, face in your palm, pet hiding in the other room kind of game.
It was ugly and there is not a darn thing we can do about it now. You guys want to burn the place down, rip the team, rip the coach, proclaim doom and gloom for now and forever go right ahead. Since I just watched my favorite team play an utterly forgettable game with a serious lack of toughness then I am going to try my best to forget it happened and vest my interest in something else.
Oh look…NCIS reruns on USA. That looks pretty good. Hey, TNT is showing Transformers.
Besides that I don’t have any answers other than starting Kendall Marshall and that may not be a cure all. It will help and push the team in the right direction but Rome wasn’t built in a day and neither will this team.
Oh and I would not totally panic yet given UNC’s history in Atlanta and the fact this is a team in progress. Now if they drop The Streak versus Clemson on Tuesday then you are free to riot.
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@LarryS
Re: “The next game will tell all.” If this team’s persona is predicated on being mentally tough/resilient (See UVA and VPI), then this group will respond against Clemson. If we actually don’t possess this characteristic, we don’t have a lot to hang our hat on at the end of the day. We’re an extremely poor outside shooting team (188th in 3-pt %, 320th in Pts scored from 3-pt line) and an average passing team (98th in TO%, 151st in A/FGM). And we nearly allowed 1 players (Delaney) to beat us, and two players (Shumpert and Rice Jr) to beat us basically on their own, so I’m not sure we can hang our hats on being a gang of defensive stoppers.
I’m not saying that if we lose to Clemson all is lost. But if we cannot clean up the empty possessions, poor shot selection and allowing the other team’s best player(s) to go off for career games, we are NIT-bound yet again. Yes, we are very young (although Ga Tech was younger/more inexperienced), but our players have to start executing basic basketball plays.
^The fire of everyone being (rightfully) upset about last night’s game. The last thing needed is people taking shots, even in jest, at other posters. It accomplishes nothing and increases the likelihood that the conversation turns ugly.
New to the site and I was wondering do you guys normally get mad at each other like this? Roy needs to send a message to his players, I don’t know of starting the second unit will help but Marshall has to start.
^^why werent we all jacked up at the idea of winning a road game, at the idea of taking 1st place in the ACC, at the idea of playing stronger than we did vs VA and VT?
the Streak is only going to be more pressure.
there have been 680 minutes of ball played this year.
Marshall has been on the floor with the nonDrew starters for about…25 min, i believe.
3.6% of the season.
can we just have a looksee at what happens to shooting %s and efficiency with that? (we already know that UNC outscored VT 23-10 with that lineup in 9 minutes)
whats the downside?
You’re right. It could descend into unnecessary ugliness on the board even if said in jest.
“Thanks CM…I’m assuming Hairston and Mcadoo have signed letters?”
Yes. National signing day was in November.
Going further…can you tell me who has signed, who hasn’t signed but has verbally committed, who we’re pursuing and may be close to committing, etc.
i sowwy
In addition to C.Michael’s comments, let me point out we have deleted close to 40 comments over the past 12-14 hours. We are not inclined to give explanations because that would be a time consuming. If you want to deal with a deleted comment then contact us and it can be discussed off the blog. Please understand there are rules but also we are making judgment calls on comments we feel do not add anything to the discussion, are outright stupid, antagonistic or otherwise a waste of space. Yeah, it is subjective but we are least trying to maintain some civility. I know people are frustrated, I am too which is why I did not bother to write a postgame wrap-up in the normal vein for fear it would be too much venting and not enough real analysis.
Carry on.
2011 Signed:
PF: James McAdoo
SG: PJ Hairston
PF: Jackson Simmons (preferred walk-on)
2011 Offers:
C: Angelo Chol
2012 Commits:
PG: Marcus Paige
2012 Offers:
SG: Shabazz Muhammad
PG: LJ Rose
PF: Alex Murphy
SF: JP Tokoto
SG: Rasheed Sulaimon
With centers DaJaun Coleman and Kaleb Tarczewski likely to get offers.
The entire comments section could have been reduced to about 5-7 in total. Oddly some of the worst ugliness resulted in some of the best posts in the string. I don’t have much to add but I’ll give POG or Best Comment of the Post to william.
Not really looking forward to the CM game analysis but I think there might be some cool applications for Google motion charts based on basketball data, particularly as far as time, players and performance. Impossible to get any real read on that data as your opponent’s lineup is changing as well but it might be a good test. Will investigate further.
I hear ya, THIM, and I do understand your basic thinking about calling on toughness when everything else seems to be missing.
This team will not necessarily end up being defined by a one thing (i.e. toughness), and each win may come in a somewhat different manner – toughness one game, execution the next, their opponent playing poorly the next. So I still feel one shouldn’t read too much into, or place that much importance on, the characteristics of any single game.
@HTTE from above, I don’t think we are in a pissing match, I just wanted to register the point that everyone played badly, including Marshall, Bullock, and McDonald. The whole team fell apart. It wasn’t a question of the rotation.
The problem is we are grasping at straws when trying to determine what this team is defined by.
This team has not cracked 65pts in an ACC basketball game, does that sound like North Carolina basketball? Funny how Roy keeps saying that this is not last year’s team and he is exactly right, last year’s team would outscore this bunch that has shown up for ACC play by 15.
If I turn on the TV tomorrow night and Roy runs out the same starting 5 that has been run out of the gym the past 3 games, then I will just have to come back here to find out the end result because I will not be watching. If Roy doesn’t care enough to mix things up and see if a better solution is available then I will not care either.
Any word on Henson injury….
Last nights game over..onto Yuesday…. Sure practice todya will eb enduring…..
scl11,
I agree with you. Unfortunately, I am 100% certain Roy trots out the exact same starting lineup.
I’m not going to get into game strategy details, but here’s the thing: coaching is somewhat responsible for team/player development as well.
To me, the most damning evidence against Roy is this: for the second year in a row, we see a team that looked promising, and posted at least one win against a top 10 team early on, looking like garbage when the conference season starts. Is it that we are taking a step backwards? Or that other teams are developing and coming together through December, while we are spinning our wheels? What has Roy figured out about his players and his lineup that he didn’t know on November 9th? once again, we seem utterly unready for the increased intensity and familiarity that conference opponents are going to bring to the table.
Yeah, we can blame the players for bad play–it’s almost inconceivable to me that NONE of our shooting guards can shoot the ball; it’s almost inconceivable that Zeller could put up the line he did against Kentucky [28, 11, 5 blocks] and then play the three games he did against three ACC teams without a premium big man between them; it’s almost inconceivable that the consensus #1 NBA pick turns out to be a limited athlete with an inconsistent outside shot. But the particular non-development curve, and seeing it two years in a row–I just don’t see how that’s not on Roy.
That’s the rant. If you wanna delete this one, THF, I’ll use a term like “sanitation engineers” next time…..
“I just wanted to register the point that everyone played badly, including Marshall, Bullock, and McDonald. The whole team fell apart. It wasn’t a question of the rotation.”
I agree that everyone played below their potential, but can you really be that naive to think there weren’t rotation issues in this game? I have never seen a more lopsided game when you look at what the “second team” was bringing to the table vs the “first team”. I realize announcers aren’t coaching experts either, but I get tired of hearing them talk every game about how much better the team looks with Marshall on the floor. Coach K benches Miles Plumlee for making ONE bonehead, lack of effort play and Ole Roy won’t bench Drew for his consistent lack of effort and inability to produce anything on offense. I am in agreement with scl11, if Roy runs the same starting lineup out there tomorrow night I won’t be watching.
Here is a question that needs to be asked: Have the players lost faith in Roy?
Lost faith in Roy? Not sure. But… definitely have lost faith in LDrew, judging by unabashedly pro-Marshall quotes of several players (Henson, Barnes). So I’d guess that there’s definitely some behind-Roy’s-back griping concerning the Drew situation. How could there not be? These kids have eyes too.
I repeat: The offense ONLY runs through KMarsh. Nobody else can create. He MUST be on the floor for 30+ minutes if this team is to avoid a repeat of The Year of Doom.
“Tell you what–I will go through the game and track both Marshall & Drew plus & minus eyeball plays.” -53bgj
Did we ever get an update on this? By the way, will you be counting Drew possessions a minus every time he makes one pass then stands outside the 3-point line for the rest of the possession or every time he pounds the ball on the floor 5 or 6 times without even thinking about making a move towards the basket? Because that makes my eyeballs want to vomit more than Marshall trying to force a couple passes when we’re down 9 with less than 10 to play.
CarMichael, I respect your posts here and at IC. You’re in my top 10. But I’m going to have to disagree on the rotation. In the first 3, and possibly the only 3 times in the game that the starting 5 played together, at a minimum they started their segments at 2-8, 2-12, and 0-8. They dug themselves or the 2nd team a cumulative 28-4 hole.
Marshall and the nonDrews…25 min out of 680. All the rotations that are put out there and THATS the one we have almost no statistical evidence for? Really?
at least we all know we’re not alone in our frustrations lol. i think the statement ‘we’re all grasping for straws’ just about sums it up. it’s roy, it’s larry, it’s zeller, it’s harrison, it’s the bench, it’s the effort, it’s….well, it’s F*#ing everything!
what i would love to have a discussion about is:
? to see what we must be missing in terms of PT decisions…
what is our (coaching staff’s) strategy in developing our current roster?
can we go watch open practices
what should be our realistic expectations for this season?
what is discernibly a coaching error and an execution error?
what are possible short and long term solutions?
in regards to the game, this team laid an egg. all teams do this at times, but this one is definitely alarming and should make us and more importanlty the coaching staff really look at what we’re trying to do this year. no one could get going offensively, we missed layups and open 3′s when we DID get some type of offensive flow (missed good shots), and other times we got no offensive flow (so we took and missed bad shots), and other times still we just made ridiculous turnovers that broke our backs (came up empty with NO shot at all). is it b/c guys don’t know their roles or are afraid to push the envelope? i really don’t know.
for expectations, look at last year and this year. last year we thought we were top 5 (well, some thought that). ed davis, nba, zeller – looked really good early as a frosh, LD, a full year of solid PG experience behind ty, graves – deep threat, ginyard – great leadership and great D, incoming recruits, AWESOME! well….davis and zeller wern’t healthy, ginyard was not healthy and then just mailed it in. larry did not pan out, and not a single recruit actually looked elite.
this year…last year’s group returning of Z, larry, more experience from dexter, mcdonald, and henson, addition of knox, and BOOM, 3 STUD freshman! yeah! time to build the program!
this year would be different if KM started (yes, continue that discussion), HB was elite (look at selby, terrence jones, sullinger, irving, knight, etc..the list goes on of players looking like they should look as a top 10 recruit), reggie (at least imo) was a guy with swagger and (as jay williams said), wayne ellington with deeper range and better defense. KM is living up to what we thought he would be, not kyrie irving, but good enough to start and lead the team. the other two? NOT.
so is this coaching and devleoping players or just bad luck and guys not panning out as quickly as we thought (or at all)?
i personally don’t know the solution or who to blame. but it helps to recalibrate my expectations.
my only ‘two cents’ going forward is to shelve the larry and dexter experiment, start kendall, reggie, and harrison (with Z and henson with a steady dose of knox off the bench). and give these 6 guys the green light. the inherent flaw is that we can’t just re-boot every year when guys don’t come in and look like ty/wayne/wright or ray/rashad/may right off the bat. however, i’d rather see what these guys do with the green light (which is important b/c i don’t want them all looking over their shoulders after 2.5 minutes of a game to get subbed).
larry is fine this year as a backup PG, i personally thought he played shupert pretty well…he’s not the devil or the sole reason this team sucks right now, the only problem is that KM is an incremental upgrade, but not enough to make us into a sweet 16 team (or anything close). does anyone else have any ideas in regards to player development ? i’m already looking to the future lol.
“I repeat: The offense ONLY runs through KMarsh. Nobody else can create. He MUST be on the floor for 30+ minutes if this team is to avoid a repeat of The Year of Doom.”
Exactly, no one else on this roster can create for himself or anyone else for that matter except for Marshall. We thought Barnes could, but evidently Steve Kerr showed up on campus instead of a top recruit and Strickland can’t get himself or the ball to the rim in one piece and if he does he now has trouble finishing (I believe it is because he is wearing Ginyard’s #1). So without Marshall on the floor you have a bunch of soft post players along with wings that can’t shoot just basically running around playing hot potato with the basketball.
So sad! So sad!
Ok, next day, cooler heads…we all obviously love the Tar Heels, so let’s stay on the same side.
Just a quick thought. Anyone with half a basketball brain knows this team has serious problems, both individually and has a collective. What has Roy done to try and correct them? Based strictly on what we all see on the court, hardly anything except playing Marshall slightly more the past two games. We all know the definition of insanity. It appears to me that Roy is more willing to let this season become last year than make a change which might suggest someone, somewhere on the Internet was right and he was wrong. It is not a sign of weakness or lack of coaching ability to make changes to try and spark something. That is what he gets paid millions of dollars to do! If anything, he could actually insulate himself from criticism somewhat by attempting at least some changes. “See, I shuffled the line-up and the result was no better.” It baffles me.
I think there is a good chance of seeing KM starting Tuesday night..
I honestly think that some of the recruits just not as talented as we may have been led to believe.and/or just taking more time to develop. Do they have the potential to be talented absolutley and sometimes players take longer.. Will always watch tarheels..would I like to see them play better YES..but….. I am a diehard fan I live in Boston and only reason I have BC hoops season tickets every year is to go see UNC…. for real.. Just an observation but do think Harrison more comfy when KM in there.. Will see tuesday night…
I never thought of Larry Drew being a top talent when he first came to UNC..He is a average basketball player..never categorized him as an elite player when he came out of highschool to UNC .
And as the saying goes no I in the word TEAM great when winning but there are tough times as well and have to endure both as a TEAM.. coaches included…
Inch by Inch everthing a sinch…LOL
“the rotation had nothing to do with it”–OK, obviously the second unit did better than the starters in the first half, but specifically the three players fans want to see more of (Marshall, McDonald, and Bullock) had games as bad as the perimeter starters. That’s what I should have said.
Here’s the first 6 minutes, just for laffs:
Henson miss
Zeller turnover
Zeller made 1 of 2 FTs
Henson turnover
Henson turnover
Barnes miss
Strickland made 1 of 2 FTs
Marshall TO
McDonald miss
McDonald miss
Marshall made layup
Bullock miss
Bullock miss
The Blue Team didn’t exactly tear it up in the first half; they shot 7/20. It’s just that GT didn’t score much during their stints, whether owing to luck or defense I don’t know.
Maybe we will be in the 3 year cycle… 2005 , 2008 , 2011- 2012 season…..just kidding…LOL
I am not giving up on tar heel hoops…I am a fan all the way good and bad times.. I will be watching on Tuesday whether the starting lineup different or not……
A couple of observations.
– Most of the comments being made are actually mature, thoughtful and reflective (at least the ones THF is letting through). This is pretty encouraging given that we all received a kick in a sensitive area yesterday.
– Two old sayings come to mind. One is that if you only have a hammer, sooner or later everything starts to look like a nail. We fans can’t actually do anything to affect the team’s fate, so a degree of frustration/anger becomes inevitable. The only thing we can do is gripe to (and sometimes at) one another. So that’s what happens.
The other old saying is that, if you’re losing, change your game. This is part of the reason so many are calling for Marshall to replace Drew as the No. 1 PG. (The other part is that Marshall is better, all things considered, and at all events has more of a future with the team than Drew).
– No, it’s not all Roy, but some of it is, and yesterday’s performance was so bad, and so lacking in any in-game adjustments, as legitimately to call into question whether Roy is cooking on all burners.
– We cannot just stay the course. We were lucky (as well as much more determined) in the VT and Virginia games, but a start-to-awful-finish showing like yesterday’s simply must be taken as a wake-up call that something fundamental (plus a lot of fundamentals) has gone wrong. I will regard it as a really bad sign if Roy starts the same line-up Tuesday, not a single member of which has proven AT ANY TIME THIS YEAR that he has decisively earned a starting job.
It seems to me that the next practice should not be about punishing them but about finding out who wants to play, and Roy should put it to them exactly that way.
– I would start giving Zeller, Henson and Knox about equal minutes, and I would sure think about starting Knox to deliver a message to the other two that each has segments of his game that are not acceptable at this level (Zeller, lack of toughness, meanness and finishing; and Henson, too frequent lack of court awareness and basic free-throw shooting).
– Drew will have to sit for the most basic of reasons: He doesn’t produce. Same, I’m afraid, with Dex (for whom I have had great hopes, but the evidence has shifted against me). I think KM and Bullock will be better, and I’m sure it’s time to find out because, ladies and gentlemen, what we have now is just not working.
I think a lot can be made of the play of the Heels late in the game, but the team is just not as good this year. GT is struggling and everyone is disappointed to have the “L” next to that game.
Like every athletic contest, it is important to remember the other team also has some say in the outcome. Georgia Tech played their best game of the season, by far, and caught UNC on a down night. Sometimes it happens like that. Explain the December 45-3 Patriots-Jets score in relation to what happened yesterday. Teams have off days.
The Heels came from behind in even games against UVa and VPI, but GT got hot at the end this time. Well, not really GT, but Shumpert and Rice certainly did.
Also, GT is a tough place for UNC to play. Tech would rather beat Carolina than anyone on their schedule, other than Duke. They care less about the UGa game than these two.
with ya orientalnc
put more spin on game Larry’s father in the stands ,coach of Hawks ( I do not follow the hawks and how doing) you laugh but fans probably loving that piece as well..seriously
bottom line… it is what it is..The team needs to play better ..
Not sure if there’s anlready been an update on Henson and McDonald here, but this is from IC:
Per UNC:
John Henson had x-rays on his left arm this morning. They came back negative. He has a sprained left arm and is going to practice today.
Leslie McDonald has a back contusion. He also is practicing today.
Thanks UNCBBALL for updates..I was wondering..
“not a single member of which has proven AT ANY TIME THIS YEAR that he has decisively earned a starting job.”
I’m with you on this, for the most part, because the starters have shown enough inconsistency, ineffectiveness, or lack of toughness that I wouldn’t mind seeing their spots temporarily or experimentally juggled……..except for John Henson.
He’s trying his best with FT’s, but mental blocks are hard to break .(From all reports he practices them plenty, and…..baby steps….he did make 5/8 against GT) Henson and Marshall are the two most essential members of this team right now, IMO, and there is no one to begin to replace Henson in the starting lineup.
I have thought a few times that I wouldn’t mind seeing Knox start for Z, just to emphasize the premium on not letting yourself get pushed around, but they’re definitely going to have to figure a way to get Z going more consistently.
I think what pisses me off the most is Roy’s comments prior to the season that “he will never go through a season like last year again”.
Many, myself included, took it that Roy did not have many options last year to fix the issues, either do to experience or injury, and would not be put in that situation again. Many of us had higher hopes for this season because with the 3 freshmen coming in Roy would have more alternatives to throw at the issues.
PG issues – True PG Marshall available to push or take mins from Drew
Shooting issues – Both Barnes and Bullock able to provide fire power from the perimeter
Go to Scorer – Again Both Barnes and Bullock able to step into that role.
Now, Roy has gone full tilt with giving Barnes the opportunity to fill the scoring and shooting voids, and so far Barnes has failed miserably. But from my vantage point Marshall is being held back in order to give minutes to a less performer in Drew. While Bullock has never really been given a sufficient amount of minutes to see if he can close the voids on the perimeter or as a scorer.
I’m just tired of Roy keeping bullets in his gun and losing to Paul F&cking Hewitt 4 times straight because he is too stubborn change or admit he might have been wrong.
Unacceptable and even Roy’s “pinky finger” should know better…….
Here is my issue with sitting Henson for his free throw shooting. Every game we hear that he is shooting decently from the line in practice. During yesterday’s loss, his form from the line didn’t look bad. Is he missing free throws because he is lacking upper body conditioning? Maybe. Is it because of lack of confidence? That could be the answer as well. All I know is that this team is better with him on the floor than without.
agree larry, starting lineup tomorrow night that i would like to see if nothing else to at least send a message to your own team:
PG Marshall
SG McDonald
SF Bullock or Barnes
PF Henson
C Knox
What I’d also like to see, but Tuesday night will be too soon for any changes of this magnitude to be implemented, are some new wrinkles to the Carolina offense where they clear the lane and bring Zeller up for some pick and rolls with Marshall and Strickland.
Basically I want to see Roy Williams coach and make adjustments that give his team the best chance to score more than 50pts in a basketball game in the 21st century.
Bleacher Report has a new article questioning Roy’s ability to coach based on this season and last. Such talk and speculation will only grow stronger if Roy doesn’t turn things around. Players read this stuff, including recruits.
THF: Link removed. Bleacher Report has zero to no credibility as a site and probably should be ignored.
The problem is two-fold:
You have a coach who clearly has shown that he does not know how to handle his personnel and adapt to a winning strategy based on that personnel (last year). This year has he not shown the ability to understand what combinations and line-ups have the best chemistry and work best.
Two, you have highly touted players who have very clearly underperformed Bullock especially, and Barnes, as well.
The only real difference from last year to this year is that this year we simply have more high school All-Americans underachieving.
Last night was a disaster of epic proportions. Roy- never thought I would ever be saying this, but he just got a leash, and it just got tight for the first time last night. This team HAS to play better the rest of this year, AND turn the corner big time next year.
orientalnc –
With all respect, we can’t really dismiss yesterday as merely an “off day.” Our first half was seriously bad and our second half was atrocious. That goes well beyond an “off day.” GT is a team with about one-and-half quality players, and they beat the stuffing out of us in every phase of the game, all game long. The game reminded me of the one last year where Ginyard heaved a pass into the fourth row. There were turnovers galore, numerous missed lay-ups (indeed I’m pretty sure I saw a couple of air ball lay-ups), defensive embarrassments about every forty seconds — yikes.
It is not time to chalk it up to an “off day.” It is time to recognize that we are looking over the abyss and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, since the abyss is no fun, as we found out with last year’s journey to the same destination.
Wow. Removing the link is clearly your right, THF, but please explain how that particular article lacks credibility. Also, my point was not that the article was true, but that such speculation (about Roy’s coaching) is already being discussed on other forums and likely to get worse if things are not turned around. I don’t agree with that censorship, but it’s your site, not mine.
I said the site lacks credibility and it does. Respected bloggers and journalists consider it a complete joke because they have no standards and allow basically anyone to write there. I removed the link because I do not want traffic being directed there.
If you want to quote part of it or summarize it, feel free. I allow most links to stand but that site, like Gregg Doyel, should really be ignored.
OldSchool,
On the BleacherReport site, 70% of the voters have said the teams plays is on Roy.
However, the article is a kneejerk reaction. For instance, it says that Roy doesn’t take a player who makes a mistake and go over their error. I greatly disagree; Roy has taken entire lineups and tell explain to them what the issues on the court are.
“The only real difference from last year to this year is that this year we simply have more high school All-Americans underachieving.”
Hmm…interesting comment.
Same overall number, last year vs. this year (lost 3 – gained 3), I guess it’s a matter of which ones supposedly are/were the underachievers.
It actually is not that uncommon for highly regarded coaches to, for whatever reason, essentially take a step back from the high levels they had grown used to, for so long.
I can think of two in-house examples. Frank McGuire’s successful tenure at USC petered out, due to leaving the ACC, and losing UNC-grad Donnie Walsh as assistant and chief recruiter, and he was essentially forced out as coach around 1980, for Duke’s Bill Foster.
Larry Brown has had a similar sad story, basically having his career end in two abject failures with the Knicks and Charlotte, and ending up being canned by a UNC alumnus, a decision that apparently no one disagreed with.
Bobby Cremins is another example, among many more.
I think Roy could have several more of these NIT type seasons before he runs into trouble, but there are limits. ESPN and CBS have a lot invested in the Duke-UNC match-ups and they certainly aren’t going to want to stomach too many more like last year’s game at Duke.
Like everyone, Roy’s issues the last two years have been puzzling to me, in terms of recruits, strategy and public comments. Because he was in Kansas for so many years, we are not familiar with his foibles, and we have been spoiled by Dean Smith. I wonder if any thought has been given to changing up the staff, but I think some change might be worthy of consideration with regards to the assistant coaches.
Thanks for the explanation, THF. I guess the question I’d like to throw out there concerns when the focus might turn away from the players and toward Roy’s coaching, and whether such talk will hurt our recruiting. Or worse yet, will it filter into the locker room and cause dissension. Your thoughts.
Good points, William.
New to the board.
Roy has to realize that his current coaching stategy isn’t effective. I respect that he gave it a shot and hung with what he thought was the best starting 5. There has to be a change though. The two most vital positions in Carolina basketball, in my opinion, are the PG and SG. However, these two positions are where we need the most improvement.
LD2 has to sit, he is a nonfactor on offense! And in order to win games you have to score. (Overrated on D)
Dex provides incredible athleticism and explosiveness but he is cannot score against good teams. (Cant shoot)
KM is a true PG. He has incredible court vision and reminds me of Ed Cota. He needs to start and get significant min.
My starting 5 for Clemson are as follows.
PG- KM
SG- Bullock
SF- Barnes
PF- Henson
C- Zeller
*I would love to see this lineup but i doubt i will.
We had my wife’s friend over for the game last night, a UNC grad and casual fan but not much into basketball, and she wondered who the Cremins was, the name on Georgia Tech’s court. We explained that he was the former, and very successful, Ga. Tech coach. She then asked when he had retired and we explained that he hasn’t, in fact he now coaches at College of Charleston.
Needless to say, she had a hard time making sense of this.
I think the obvious reason why Roy is having issues lies with his mentor. Dean’s health problems could be exactly what is distracting Roy.
As for Roy, he didn’t all of a sudden lose his ability to coach. He’s still the same coach that led us to NCs, for gosh sakes. And while those teams had a ton of talent, he motivated them to accept roles, play his style and one could argue got more out of the majority of those players than they’ve shown in the NBA (with the exception of Lawson and perhaps Felton, the others haven’t had, so far, very successful NBA careers).
If anything, he “missed” on evaluating the abilities of the current players, although you’d have to say the jury is still out on most, if not all, of the players (with LDII being the exception). With that said, I think it’s fair to say that Barnes hasn’t performed up to his own standard, but I think we can all see he’ll be special. (One positive out of all this might be that Barnes returns for another year!) I would say all of this is especially true of our guards, and guard play dominates at this level. We just don’t have a game-breaker on the perimeter like Lawson or Felton or McCants or Ellington.
Finally, not sure why folks want to throw Dex under the bus along with LDII at this point. He’d made real strides, I thought, but struggled against the zone vs. VPI, and stunk (along with everyone else) vs. Ga Tech. Pretty obvious that Roy and staff don’t trust him at the point, but I think if Harrison or Reggie were shooting better, it would open up some drives for Dex. Plus, he’s so good in transition but we’ve failed to get out and run the last couple of games, and that hurts his productivity. I think he needs to stay in the starting line-up. L-Mac is a one-dimensional player, and we need Dexter’s aggressiveness and ability to attack the rim more than an outside shooter.
Vinsanity and Felton in action right now…Suns and Knicks in a tight one in the 4th.
Vinsanity. Gotta love it. Those were good times. Check out this 1997/1998 line-up:
PG – Ed Cota
SG – Shammond Williams
SF – Vince Carter
PF – Antawn Jamison
C – Brendan Haywood/Makhtar Ndiaye
yikes, cant believe you brought up Makhtar.
how bout this Big East doubleheader today:
#7 Villanova @ #8 UConn
#3 Syracuse @ #4 Pitt
***
Carolina Hurricanes lose to the Bruins 7-0.
i just cant get any of my teams to come out with intensity.
and now Tyler meets Blake Griffin for the first time since the Regional Final in 2009.
he just drew a charge on Blake.
http://www.atdhe.net/32728/watch-indiana-pacers-vs-los-angeles-clippers
It is hard for me to see how Dean Smith’s health issues have any effect on this. Roy’s own sister had even worse issues of the same category, and passed away a couple of year’s ago, and it didn’t seem to hurt Williams’ coaching performance.
It could very well just be a two year streak of very bad luck. K had a couple of lousy years in the 1990′s right after almost winning his third title in 1994, and then a couple of not so great ones in the mid-2000′s.
What concerns me the most, is that in spite of the early departures and transfers and suspensions of players, there are teams with much less luster and less highly recruited players that seem to be rolling right along. And I am not talking about Kentucky and Kansas. Are Pittsburgh and Villanova out-recruiting us? Is Maryland? West Virginia? These are all Mid Atlantic teams with less prestigious programs and campuses that have been outdoing us the last two years, which is admittedly, a short time span for comparison.
I can’t believe I’m right back where I was last year wondering which of these two things is our problem:
1 – The talent is there but Roy can’t figure out how to use it or
2 – The last two (or three) recruiting classes were vastly overrated and Roy is trying the best he can to make some chicken salad
I almost hope the answer is #1 because #2 could take several years to fix, but I don’t know. What do others think?
William,
Who do you think Roy went to when he issues or needed advice on how to deal with his team?
^I’m not sure that Roy IS asking anyone for any advice.
HTTE,
Maybe this team could use the recruit who was once considered better than Tim Duncan?
Here is what ESPNInsider said about UNC’s loss.
Have Heels hit rock bottom?
12:42
PM ETNorth Carolina Tar Heels TopEmailShare5When Georgia Tech tagged North Carolina with a 20-point loss yesterday, many respected sports journalists raced to Twitter to relay their immediate reactions. Here were a few:
Seth Davis of Sports Illustrated and CBS Sports tweeted, “For those who were wondering, that sound you hear is me leaping off the UNC bandwagon. Pretty empty behind me. I’ll turn off the lights.”
Michael DeCourcy of The Sporting News added a tweet of his own: “We all thought rock bottom for Carolina came last year. We thought wrong, because we are watching it now.”
Now, the loss to the Yellow Jackets wasn’t pretty, but UNC entered the game with wins in eight of its last nine contests and already had 12 wins this season. The Tar Heels also are one of only three teams to beat Kentucky this year, and nearly knocked off a Texas team that’s now ranked No. 14 in the country.
Has everyone already forgotten the 2001-2002 UNC team, which finished the season 8-20 and ended the Tar Heels’ run of 31 straight 20-win seasons and 35 straight seasons of finishing third or higher in the ACC? Clearly, the 2010-2011 Tar Heels are nowhere near rock bottom.
I don’t see any need for convoluted psychological theories about what is wrong with Roy. Nothing’s wrong with Roy; he’s doing the same stuff he has always done.
This team’s main problem is inconsistent outside shooting such that all the shooters seem to go bad simultaneously in some games, and then we can’t score much. Last night, Barnes, Bullock, and McDonald combined for 6 of 28. Roy could give more minutes to Bullock and McD, but that won’t help if they are both missing. I’m sure Roy is hoping or expecting that the young shooters will get more consistent with experience. There’s not much else he can do. There’s nothing a healthy Dean could do about that, either.
I don’t think Roy was leaning on Dean for advice too often. He wasn’t doing it while at Kansas and was really successful there so that is not an issue. Does Dean’s health impact Roy emotionally? I think so because Dean is like a father to him but I don’t think it influencing his coaching this team.
The only other big change in the program besides the personnel on the court in the past two years is the move of Joe Holladay from assistant to director of basketball operations. That move limits Holladay’s involvement with the actual coaching of the team. There is no way of know what impact this has had on the coaching, if any at all.
If Dean was that important to UNC’s success since 2004 (and, I assume, to Kansas’s before that), then we may indeed be in trouble. I have seen nothing to indicate that Dean was some sort of force behind the scenes. Apparently, this was the case somewhat with Doherty, but nobody liked those results very much.
Roy may run a similar system, but he does diverge, and some of his divergences drive many Tar Heel fans crazy, things like not utilizing much zone and not shifting on screens, and seeming to favor lesser talented players much more than Dean ever did, while criticizing his players in general, in public fora, much more than Smith ever did.
A lot of winning a title is based on chance. Roy had bad luck with Kansas, and then good luck with UNC in 2005, against an equally good Illinois team. His 2009 team was probably the best team relative to that year’s competition that he will ever coach.
Dean only won two titles, but at the time he won his first title, there was only one active coach in the country who had won even more than one title. It was a different era. Roy Williams is a great success, but even if he does win a couple more titles, I don’t think he will equal what Smith did, unless he can reel off several more Final Four finishes, while avoiding any more losing ACC seasons.
^Roy could have changed the starting lineup. Roy could have used a different substitution patten. Don’t tell me he always used five in five subbing.
Convoluted psychological theories? It is a simple one. The guy who are close to is having health problems. It has to affect Roy. Besides, it better than saying Roy is an idiot, or that he is like Denny Crum, had a great decade then imploded.
^Agreed. BTW, one of the areas where Roy has diverged from Dean (and I’m actually glad he did) is making 3 point shooting a bigger part of the offense… which is why last year’s and this year’s lack of good shooters is even more frustrating.
^The reason why I say Dean’s health has something to with Roy’s struggles is if that Roy had problems coaching against Kansas despite none of his old players being there, what do you think his mentor being in poor health will do to him.
I think, if we want to be honest, and I hope it doesn’t hurt the players’ feelings, but rather spurs them on, that much of the blame for any disappointment this year can be placed on the relative performances of Henson and Barnes.
This makes two years in a row that UNC’s top recruit has dramatically underperformed, vis-a-vis expectations. Henson hardly even played last year until February. He then looked pretty decent after Davis went down, but it was hardly the stuff of top five in the country players. Henson looks much better this year, but still, as a sophomore, is a far cry from say, Brandan Wright, who came in probably equally as highly touted, as a freshman,
Barnes has been very similar this year, to what Henson showed last year, allowing for the differences in their games. Barnes, however, is getting far more playing time, and that cuts both ways. Hopefully, Barnes will improve, but I haven’t seen any noticeable improvement in his game yet, and we are almost 20 games in.
So let’s imagine for an instant that Henson and Barnes were both currently playing at their originally expected levels. You would have the current team, with all its other issues, yes, but also Henson and Barnes providing the team with a Brandan Wright and an Antawn Jamison type of production.
Does anybody doubt that would be a Sweet Sixteen type team, even with all the guard issues?
^William,
I agree last year, John Henson was supposed to be Kevin Durant. This year Harrison Barnes is supposed to be Kobe Bryant(though I still think Barnes will be very, very good.)
^william great point.
Someone commented above that we don’t have a Danny Green type (solid role player but capable of going off if needed). I think, though, we lack that stud that can go get us a hoop when needed or carry us for stretches when others are struggling, and thus opens things up for guys like L-Mac, Bullock, Strickland, etc.
Henson and Barnes need to be those guys, along with Zeller. I think they can be, they just haven’t on a consistent basis.
The bottom line is Roy has clearly lost his touch. I’m sure he wants it more than anyone else, that’s why in part I do like him so much, but I’m also a realist- there is obviously a disconnect with him and the players that has gone on now for the past year and a half now. He is not getting through.
By the way, can those talking about coach Smith’s health affecting Roy and that is why we are struggling, just shut up? That is preposterous. Enough with the excuses. The coach isn’t doing his job, and the team is underachieving.
Here’s my thoughts, for whatever they are worth (and probably not much):
It is a combination of both. Roy is coaching the same way but is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. The players are simply not as good…at least right now…as their rankings. Now, some of that is on Roy, both in evaluation and in finding ways to fit them into the proper roles. But, like I said earlier, and others have also said, Roy is paid millions of dollars to find out what is wrong with this team. At this point, from afar, they all need a wake-up call. Start the second team on Tuesday. Start Knox and KM over Drew and Zeller (excellent suggestions). Run the walk-ons out there for one minute. Heck, I’d love to see him start the walk-ons just to send a message. But, do something Roy. He controls PT and he should use that as a carrot and a stick. Right now, I agree that no starter has earned it and frankly no one in the second team other than KM has earned being in the rotation.
Drdave,
Don’t tell me to shut up. You disagree with my opinion, that is fine. However, I can at least say I gave an example of how Roy isn’t just too stubborn or losing his touch. Remember, we are talking about a guy who is too emotional to coach against his old team, anything is possible.
“The bottom line is Roy has clearly lost his touch.”
Right, it’s been a year and a half since he won a national championship.
^Drdave – chill out.
Roy hasn’t lost his “touch.” This isn’t golf. He knows the game, knows how he wants it played, and the players either a)aren’t as good as Roy (or anyone else) thought, or b)aren’t executing like Roy is teaching them, or c)combination of A+B. (I’d go with C.) Roy has his system and style of play, just like Dean did (and we all probably would have been chattering at the water cooler back in the day that Dean needed to be flexible, run more, press, trap, whatever). Both guys have their ways, and when it’s good, we’re really good. When we don’t have the horses, not so good.
Also, I don’t understand why everyone is so high on Knox. Good rebounder and role player, but Zeller gives us the best chance to win. Does he need to take over more? Yes, but the guards have to pass him the ball somewhere above his knees first, and it would help if someone could consistently make an outside shot to open up the lane/spacing a bit for Zeller.
^Good call on passing to Zeller. Zeller and Henson also need to remember to keep the ball high and not bring it down to their waist. I would like to point out that in ACC play Zeller hasn’t taken any jumpers at the top of the key. I say when Knox is in the post let Zeller take those shots or better yet let Zeller and Barnes run high/low. It won’t allow defenses to pack in the lane.
“Also, I don’t understand why everyone is so high on Knox. Good rebounder and role player, but Zeller gives us the best chance to win.”
Agreed. Knox has certainly been everything I had (reasonably) hoped he would, but he also averages 5.4 fouls per 40 minutes, many of which are not of the “good” variety (Henson averages 2.5, Zeller averages 4.0). He is a nice backup, but that’s about it.
Nova / huskie great game.. Kemba walker has been playing lights out this year hey that score was 61 to 59… LOL actually nova started out like UNC cold …
i agree with a couple of you on the fact that roy has missed on a few recruits lately. we desperately needed henson and barnes to be stars but they aren’t (not yet?) they were recruited by everybody in the country, so everybody else was wrong too i guess.
the problem roy has now is that no matter who he plays, they all struggle.
lineups don’t mean a thing if everybody stinks. we’ve screamed for marshall, lmac and bullock to get more minutes,now they have, and how’s that working out for us?
the biggest disappointment to me is zeller. his passiveness is driving me nuts.
I don’t think Roy’s lost his touch. The guy knows more about basketball than any of us (and maybe all of us combined). He’s won at the highest level…twice. The problem is that the last two recruiting classes were vastly overrated. These kids just aren’t as good as advertised. If Bullock and Barnes were playing like they were supposed to play, we wouldn’t be having these discussions. It’s really that simple. Marshall is doing his part.
As for the class from two years ago, Henson’s free throw shooting is worse than Shaq’s. How sad is that? We all love Strickland’s toughness on defense, and his willingness to drive to the hoop, but the poor kid can’t shoot from the perimeter to save his life. McDonald is a nice shooter, but he lacks the quickness to penetrate, and his ball-handling/passing skills are average at best. The Wear brothers transferred, but who really thinks they will be special players? Not me.
I think it was posted earlier.. Right now we do not have that consistent player that can score 15 18 points every night when others may be struggling. ( as an example walker for uconn) Think we will eventually..
2 titles in his coaching career at UNC is not all that shabby in my opinion..but who I am..
“I agree last year, John Henson was supposed to be Kevin Durant. This year Harrison Barnes is supposed to be Kobe Bryant(though I still think Barnes will be very, very good.)”
I really don’t remember anyone comparing John Henson to Kevin Durant, other than maybe their body types, long and lanky.
This is Rivals one-line description of #2 HS prospect Durant:
“Scary skill set for a player with his length”
and this for #4 John Henson:
“Developing prospect who has a lot of upside”
Even knowing what we know about the fact that different players, from different years, are not all on the same level, John Henson was never considered to possess the offensive skills of Durant. And though he was a highly-ranked prospect, most scouting reports viewed him as a two-year project because of his lack of strength, and slight build.
John has proven to be an excellent shot blocker, and rebounder despite his ability to bang, and his offensive game will improve as he gets more experience and gets stronger.
So, to me, he may be somewhat behind what was expected, offensively, but certainly not dramatically underperforming.
Barnes, frankly, has been puzzling. I believe he has all the tools but his bball savvy and decision-making leave a lot to be desired to this point – still driving into crowds and taking high-difficulty, low-percentage shots, not protecting the ball, making silly TO’s. So he’s got some learning to do.
ITA old school.. Think Bullock and Barnes will be though.. Actually KM probably the one that you heard the least about. ?? not sure could be wrong..
We are used to tougher guys down low.. May, Hansborough, Wallace ( he was psycho too..) LOL seriously I liek Z but needs to get tougher as does Henson..Throw them to them floor..wrestle for the ball.. j/k LOL last thougth was the tech guy taking ball out of hensons hands…
Will be wathcing Pitt/ Syracuse game lter think will be a good one..
watching espn hubert always wearing some carolina blue……
I agree I find Barnes puzzling also Larry S.. ITA he has the tools..just puzzling to wathc ..
LarryS,
I will admit it was the terrible preseason guides from last year who labeled Henson as the next Durant. I never thought he was going to even tough Durant, but I was hoping he would score at least 15 points and grab 8 boards. It never happened, but I can see it happen next year.
There was a reason why Roy thought Henson could play wing. For a big man he can handle the ball, and he came into college supposedly with decent range.
I keep bringing this up but Barnes has a serious disadvantage on Durant and Carmelo. They had guards who could produce and run the offense. If took Jerry McNamara and Kueth Duany/Billy Edelin as replacements for Drew and Stickland, I guarantee UNC would have lost as many games this season. The same can be said if you replaced Drew and Stickland with DJ Augustin and AJ Abrams.
Seniors….. two last year and Knox this year. Roy will be fine.He has the talent but not the experience. If Singlar or Smith go pro last year, dook would be in the same boat. Experience not talent wins.
Barnes reminds me of McCants in some ways. An enigma…a puzzle. You can’t really warm up to those guys because they never let you in.
Exactly nicely said wpe022…
old school can see why you say that but I actually think Barnes more talented and better shooter overall..then Mc Cants
Someone asked about the +/- for the GT debacle. I kept track of two player’s +/-
Kendall Marshall: +8
Larry Drew: -27
For all of Roy’s talk about about a big defensive gap between Drew and KM, we sure defended GT better with Drew on the bench.
Yes, Roy has won us two national titles, but clearly he has a major weakness that we have seen recently: He’s WAY too stubborn, it takes him a long time to ADAPT, if at all. You are seeing it right here, right now with the starting line-up. Clearly, our starting line-up lacks chemistry and is offensively challenged. Changes should have been made several games ago. Will they be made? I hope so. You can’t start a point guard who is smack in the middle of average/below average at distribution and cannot score points, and a shooting guard (who can slash every once in awhile) who can’t shoot from the outside, and expect us not to struggle offensively. When will these changes be made?
I compared Henson and Barnes to Wright and Jamison because I think that was a reasonable amount of production to expect from two top five players. Jamison was not as highly recruited, but had an excellent, if not quite Kevin Durant type freshman year, as did Wright his freshman year, putting up Hansbrough-type numbers in spite of his free throws, which resembled Henson a lot, as does his build. As someone said, fifteen points and seven or eight boards last year for Henson would have been about what Wright averaged back in 2007.
Secondly, I am not sure that the two players’ underwhelming performance is all on Roy. As someone said, every school in the country wanted these guys. It may just be bad luck that we have so far had two underwhelming top recruits in a row. That doesn’t make them bad players, or without talent. It is all relative to expectations, and we aren’t all that used to such disappointment.
One way that Henson last year, and Barnes this year have been especially disappointing has been the way that they just don’t look comfortable on the floor given the new higher level of competition. Henson, at times, last year, before changing positions, often looked utterly confused. Barnes doesn’t seem to realize yet that every team in the ACC has guys that can and will take the ball away from him if he doesn’t protect it.
I can think of Cliff Rozier and Curtis Hunter as two similar disappointments, but UNC has not had too many.
I put the other freshmen on a lower rung of expectations, and yes, I am disappointed in Bullock, but he has had a trying season in many ways, including losing the person who raised him and injuries. I do think that one might find more fault, however, with the coaching of Bullock and Marshall, than with the coaching of Henson and Barnes, because of the scatter shot way in which Bullock and Marshall have been used.
We always hope for the best and this year’s class seemed to have the potential to match McCants (where is he now), Felton and May, with Barnes being perhaps a bit better than the other two, while Felton, McCants and May always seemed about equally good.
Right now, Marshall seems to have the most going right for him because he is shooting pretty well and seems to have a nose for the ball. He is no Felton or Lawson, but he might be Chris Corchiani, which isn’t shabby at all. Larry Drew’s offensive rating is so low, that it is getting more and more difficult to keep claiming his defense is winning us ball games. It is hard for me to see a path that ends very happily for Larry if his goal was to be a star player at UNC. Mid-season, junior year is pretty far along to be expecting improvement.
With Bullock, I don’t have any idea yet how he will turn out. Is he more Will Graves or more Wayne Ellington? Probably somewhere in between the two, which is a little disappointing, but it is hard to know because Ellington actually got to play a lot when he was a freshman.
I wish I could say that I see Strickland or McDonald as turning into a Danny Green but they are both far from that, in spite of some moderate improvement. Maybe if they keep improving by the same amount, by their senior years they will be solid starters, but don’t hold your breath.
The greatest equalizer in college basketball is the three-point shot. Look at UNC’s starting backcourt; Drew and Strickland definitely won’t tear it up from downtown, let alone actually attempt any three-point shots.
To an extent, this is why I believe Barnes isn’t having the year we thought he would have. He’s the only “threat” on the perimeter with Drew and Strickland out there with him. He’s stuck in a void because teams KNOW Strickland and Drew aren’t even going to attempt a perimeter shot, so they pack down on Zeller and Henson and cut off any lanes for Barnes to attack. At least that’s my observation, take it for what it’s worth.
This is why starting McDonald, maybe even Bullock (even though he’s 1/10 I believe in his last 10 attempts) would be more beneficial. Strickland should be the energy/change of pace guy off the bench and contribute that way. Hell, I would even feel comfortable with Strickland spelling Marshall at the point than with Drew. Teams would at least have to respect Bullock/McDonald taking the outside shot.
At the PG position, at this point, I just really don’t see what Roy sees that is so much more beneficial by starting Drew. For reasons that have been discussed over and over and over (and over and over) again he’s not fitting into things and is dragging the team down. I would much rather take any mistakes Marshall makes that he’ll dedicate hiimself to learning from than watching Drew do the same, ineffective things he did his freshman year.
Barnes actually disappears so much throughout a game that he can go minutes and no one notice he is on the court. Not high praise for your supposed All-American. And, yes, that was crazy and too much pressure on the kid, but obviously folks who get paid to evaluate these things thought they saw something with him that, frankly, is just not there yet. I’m not sure if it ever will be there but I think it can if he plays with KM more.
Andy, great assessment on Strickland’s & Drew’s perimeter struggles as related to Barnes’ difficulties. Likely some merit in that. In fact, there are a lot of great ideas and assessments here.
But at this point, seems like speculation & ideas as to how we might do things mean little when the Million Dollar Question has emerged:
Will Roy be willing to change or, dare I say it, even experiment to produce different results?
Once he demonstrates that he IS willing, speculation as to certain ideas will be more fun & even have more value. Until then, I just don’t have the heart to speculate about any more ideas for line-ups & strategies.
I don’t see why anyone is high on Barnes at this point or sees him as an imminent impact player as soon as he figures his sh*t out. Look at his percentages. Look at his awkward attempts to drive into traffic. I don’t see the fire or confidence to try and take the team on his shoulders. That’s what he was billed as. I hope more than anyone here that he snaps out of it and becomes the superstar we all hoped for. But at the half way point, I don’t think it will happen. Not to worry about one and done. Maybe next year.
And Zeller? Fugedaboutit. I know most would disagree, but I would rather see Knox get the time then have to watch Z play a foot shorter than he is. Til Z figures out that he’s 7 ft and is supposed to be tough inside every night like he did against UK, then he’ll continue to disappoint. Can you spell D-U-N-K and forget the forced hook/flip shots. Oh well, so what else is new?
WTF?